Beer-monster Posted June 4, 2003 Posted June 4, 2003 There is kata in Muay Thai. Theres that weird dance that traditonal Thai fighters do (I forget the name) but in the movements are all the condensed principle and movements of muay thai. The thing is kata is not the preffered training method of Muay Thai and kali. They have other methods, horses for courses as the saying goes. But if you know and understand kata it can be of use to any martial artist, (perhaps you could create a kali kata?) just as thai pads can. Up to you how you train but kata is only a waste of time if you don't understand or do it properly never for any other reason. Mind, body and fist. Its all a man truly needs.
SupaNinjaz Posted June 4, 2003 Posted June 4, 2003 Beer-monster wrote: There is kata in Muay Thai. Theres that weird dance that traditonal Thai fighters do (I forget the name) but in the movements are all the condensed principle and movements of muay thai. LOL... Kata in Muay Thai? The Wai Kru is a ritual dance done before a fight to show respect and homage to your teachers, family, and gift of life. The movements come from animals and their spiritual representation in Buddhism, the movements are NOT a representation of Muay Thai techniques, but all Wai Kru's are different so some clubs will add techniques from Muay Thai.The thing is kata is not the preffered training method of Muay Thai and kali. Well or course not, how is a Thai fighter gonna prepare him/herself to fight in the ring, if most of their time is being spend kick, punching, elbowing, kneeing and stepping to air? In Muay Thai EVERYTHING is done with a partner, it's the only practical and realistic way to train and perpare for a fight. The same goes with Kali, everything must be done on a partner in order to learn proper timing, distancing, offensive and defensive movements. In Muay Thai anything can happen in the ring, so why practice a fixed pattern? In Kali anything can happen when your opponent has a knife so why pratice a fixed pattern? It's all unrealistic!perhaps you could create a kali kata?) just as thai pads can Once again... This would only be a waste of time, what's the point of creating a Kali/Muay Thai kata, when partner training is the only practical and realistic way of training for a fight or combat! If a partner is not around (which would be unusual) then I would hit the heavy bag for Muay Thai, and for Kali I would practice stabing and slicing the tire bag. As a result for my Muay Thai/ Kali training, kata would be a waste of time, but like I wrote before, if you find that kata helps YOU in your training then do it, work on it, improve on it.
Beer-monster Posted June 4, 2003 Posted June 4, 2003 So the Wai Kru involves none of the Muay Thai concepts and principles. You sure? Spiritualism yes, but they say that about alot of kata. The stuff about the Wai Kru I got from an article (I think in IKF) by some Muay Thai master from Thailand. But then it was a while ago. Hm for the ring. Yeah maybe kata wouldn't work. But kata is not about the ring or about sport, it contains the pinciples and techniques of karate to be used in a no holds barred fight. So if you want to win in the ring or sslash with a sword, maybe katas not for you. However if you found what Muay Thai techniques worked in fight in which combinations, you may want to preserve them. Thats where kata is from. Hey whatever works for you. Mind, body and fist. Its all a man truly needs.
SupaNinjaz Posted June 5, 2003 Posted June 5, 2003 Beer-monster wrote:So the Wai Kru involves none of the Muay Thai concepts and principles. You sure? but they say that about alot of kata Read what I wrote again, and you will see that some camps do add Thai techniques. The Wai Kru is NOT a kata, it's a single RITUAL DANCE done to pay homage to life, teachers and family. It is not a form you practice to improve your techniques, distance, timing... like a kata. it contains the pinciples and techniques of karate to be used in a no holds barred fight. So if you want to win in the ring or sslash with a sword, maybe katas not for you. So what principles are these? JKD, Krav Maga, Kali… are all self defense/street fighting based arts, yet they have no fixed patterns, why... because the streets are unpredictable and anything can happen. As a result why practice a fixed pattern for the unpredictable? Kata will not make you a better fighter, kata will not prepare you for the streets and kata will not save you against a knife attack. Getting busted up, for hours in the ring or at the dojo/camp in sparring will make you a better fighter, resistant partner training in grappling, striking, weapons and multiply opponents can save your life on the streets, rigorous knife to knife, hand to knife, knife to hand training against partners will prepare you for a knife attack. Oh and in Kali we mainly use knives, daggers and machetes very, very little sword work.
Beer-monster Posted June 5, 2003 Posted June 5, 2003 Kata will not make you a better fighter. Hm awfully sure of yourself when judging something you've never done. It won't help on its own, but it is part of the method. And if you think kata is a preset defence against specific techniques, you're wrong! Yeah I'll admit you got me on the machete thing.,] Mind, body and fist. Its all a man truly needs.
WhiteBelt Posted June 6, 2003 Posted June 6, 2003 Kata helps work technique, and your mind. On its own it will never make you a great fighter, unless you have the greatest imagination of anybody.
j0rge Posted June 12, 2003 Posted June 12, 2003 You have a Lot To LEARN....Try to Understand.... Just as it is the clear mirror that reflects without distortion, or the quiet valley that echoes a sound, so must one who would study Karate-do purge himself of selfish and evil thoughts, for only with a clear mind and conscience can he understand that which he receives
Beer-monster Posted June 12, 2003 Posted June 12, 2003 Uh who? me? Mind, body and fist. Its all a man truly needs.
Kakushiite Posted June 14, 2003 Posted June 14, 2003 I am a serious student of kata. I try to practice and teach them as I think they were practiced 100 years ago. That means, few kata, tons of repetition in the air, and lots of bag work of the techniques (they used to use makiwara) and a heavy emphasis on partner work. After training in many styles of fighting I have come to the following conclusion. The techniques in kata work well against an untrained fighter. But against a trained fighter, especially one in Muay Thai, the techniques break down, and tend to be far less effective. In Muay Thai, you overwhelm your attacker with a non-stop barrage of strikes and kicks. And the Thai boxer is conditioned to take a great deal of punishing counterstrikes. This is also the case, to some extent, with those very skilled in boxing. I choose to continue my kata focus for many reasons. Regarding self-defense, I am just not that worried about someone with serious Muay Thai training attacking me on the street. For the kinds of attacks I anticipate, kata works great. But it is my experience after nearly 30 years in the art, that the vast majority of people have little idea of how to apply the movements in kata. For all those that say practice in the air makes no sense, they are both right and wrong. By itself, practice in the air is very limiting. As part of a threepart training routine (air to develop speed, bag to develop power, partner to master the grappling), practicing in the air is great. You don't need a partner, and you can keep getting faster and faster, learning to apply good body mechanics to your techniques. -Kakushite
Beer-monster Posted June 15, 2003 Posted June 15, 2003 Bows to kakushite. Good points. I agree wholeheartedly. Mind, body and fist. Its all a man truly needs.
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