Why Do We Kick Like We Do?

[cluelesskarateka]

Hi y'all, I was just talking with a friend/training partner after a session, and we got onto the topic of why Shotokan kicks like it does. I mean, it doesn't seem to generate particularly good impact, certainly compared to kickboxers and muay thai, and from what I've seen from NHB tournaments its very unusual to see anyone kick in a karate style. So why do we kick like we do? It seems to be harder to kick in a karate way than a kickboxer way.

Just to balance this though, the famous Bill Wallace kicks in a very karate way, and seems to have done very well from it. So could it simply be that karate kicks are possibly more effective than kickboxing kicks, but require a much higher level of proficiency?

Dang, wish i knew what i was talking bout.

Peace out y'all

PS, from what i've heard, most of the well known karate kicking techniques, such as sokuto/yokogeri kekomi, mawashi geri, etc. even in none Shotokan styles are descended from the methods pioneered by Yoshitaka Funakoshi, and initially only used by Shotokan stylists, and were later assimilated by other styles when they were proved effective in the old inter-dojo competitions.

I also heard from my instructor that karate kicks were designed by Yoshitaka to be used as counter attacks, rather than as actual offensive techniques.

PPS By kickboxers kick i mean a kick with little/no chamber, that it more like a swing of dead weight rather than a snap.

[Killer Miller]

I think you may have an inexperienced perspective on Shotokan kicks. Meaning that, Shotokan kicks do require a high level of training to be truly effective - but the same is true for all Shotokan techniques. Many/most of the Shotokan karate-ka do not stick with the art long enough to become effective in their technique. Most are looking for the "short cut" to perfection of technique for competition or self defense. Shotokan requires specific development to become effective and most just don't want to spend the time to learn it - thus, most of what you see appears to be ineffective. However, you look at the vetrans that have stuck around, they have very devostating technique...

- Killer -

[cluelesskarateka]

Well Miller, I understand what you're saying, and agree wholeheartedly, my own sensei has been doing Shotokan for 30+ years, and his kicks are magnificent, probably partly due to being a student of Shirai Sensei. But I was wondering more about why other martial arts tend not to kick in this manner, and why Shotokan chooses to kick in this manner, as many other methods of kicking have been proven effective. So I'm more looking for the technical advantages of Shotokan style.

I'm not annoyed, but I'm not looking for 'short-cuts', if i was i wouldn't still be doing Shotokan.

No offence intended.

Peace out y'all

[Killer Miller]

I have trained with Shirai before, he is an awesome instructor - amazing kicks...

Well Miller, I understand what you're saying, and agree wholeheartedly, my own sensei has been doing Shotokan for 30+ years, and his kicks are magnificent, probably partly due to being a student of Shirai Sensei. But I was wondering more about why other martial arts tend not to kick in this manner, and why Shotokan chooses to kick in this manner, as many other methods of kicking have been proven effective. So I'm more looking for the technical advantages of Shotokan style.

I'm not annoyed, but I'm not looking for 'short-cuts', if i was i wouldn't still be doing Shotokan.

No offence intended.

Peace out y'all

[Killer Miller]

Also, I wasn't trying to imply to you personally were looking for a short cut, I was talking in generalities.

- Killer -

[cluelesskarateka]

As my instructor has close ties with Shirai, I'm hoping to get to train with him at some point, and I'm glad of my position, as most of the courses Shirai Sensei does now are invite only. That said, I need to get a lot better before I can even think about it. Have you ever trained with Kase Sensei Miller?

Peace out y'all

PS. As I said before, I wasn't annoyed, so all is cool. That said, if I could find a short cut that worked I'd be very tempted

[Killer Miller]

I haven't trained with Kase, I don't think, but Kase is very good too...!

- Killer -

[jaymac]

I wanted to add also, that other styles of kicks that you are seeing on TV are from different styles of martial arts and differents ways of teaching. Muay Thai is very effective for up close combat. They can kick low and usually strike at levels below waistline, or come up close and do knee kicks ---> very damaging. Tae Kwon Do practitioners do beautiful kicks that are many times high to head level. Can really take opponents out and is great for scoring points at tournaments. Shotokan kicks are powerful, linear, and penetrating. They are not meant to score points. They are meant to be strong, effective techniques whether up close or from a distance. Shotokan like many other martial arts, is a very respected style by others. You are lucky to have such a talented instructor, as I feel I too have. Continue to practice your kicks in a mirror and on heavy bag. Think of the heavy bag as an opponent and penetrate through it. When you can properly do a good shotokan kick and knock over the bag alone with the kick and not by pushing it with your weight, you will see the effectiveness of the Shotokan kick. Good luck in your continued training.

[DokterVet]

The kicks you see in full-contact competition are usually Muay Thai kicks, which are generally considered to be the strongest for full-contact fighting (however, kyokushin kicks have also been used successfully in the highest levels of full-contact competition).

Kicks from taekwondo and tradiditonal karate, which were once the standard in both full-contact and point competition, have been mostly phased out in the past few decades due to the overwhelming success of Muay Thai (and some kyokushin) practitioners in competition.

Traditional karate kicks work. They are a good way of kicking. They hurt. However, decades of competition have shown that the Muay Thai kick is the most effective kick for full-contact fighting, and kyokushin kicks are also very good.

So why do traditional karate schools still practice kicks using traditional karate form instead of adopting the latest successful methods in competition?

Tradition.

EDIT: Clarified word choice

[Jiffy]

most of the replies here sum it up, but thought I should also comment.

I have been training in shotokan for about 18 years now and would like to think that my kicks are quite effective. As previously stated, it takes a long time to master any Shotokan techniques. There are many reasons that Shotokan kicks are done the way they are, so it really depends what difference in particular you are talking about.

As to the effectiveness, anyone who has stood infront of a kick from an experienced Shotokan practitioner will have no questions about it's effectiveness, and for their purpose I believe they are as effective as any other, but if what you are after is smashing someone's leg or hip, then go to the best in the business.... Muay Thai