position of fist, on the hip or on the rib?

[alsey]

I'm not trying to change what anyone does or doesnt. I used to be a boxer myself, and I happen to prefer doing hikite (when punching). I'm just sayting that the arguments presented here about the lack of effectiveness of the technique dont hold water.

my arguments? i have never said your use of hikite is ineffective. if you're referring to someone else's arguments, sorry, i havn't actually read most of the thread.

I disagree with your interpretation and timeline for the use of hikite. Chinese martial artists have been doing it for at least 5 hundred years, coming from the yin/yang, balance concepts of Bodhidarma. Okinawan karatekas (like Funakoshi)got it from them. Sensei Funakoshi did not invent the concept. Most Shaolin kenpo styles have hikite and use it when striking.

i don't really know much about kung fu, so i won't comment on it. i'm talking about hikite in karate, which as far as i know is traditionally used as a grasping action. besides the quote from funakoshi, there are other things to back this up. hikite is used in slow kata movements as well as fast ones. if the movement is performed slowly then power clearly isn't an issue, so why use hikite? there's obviously something more to it than generating power.

As for the MMA, these competitions are more akin to boxing/kickboxing in terms of the striking strategy (trading blows/techniques, staying in the pocket, trying to dominate the opponent instead of trying to defend oneself). In karate, one doesnt plow into harm's way to prove one is tough and to win the judges over with agression (in which case, it probably is better to have both hands up near the chin at all times). Traditonal Karate is a defensive art that (usually) prefers to use timing and distance, striking when the time is right with maximimum power.

that's very true, but that doesn't mean there's nothing to learn from MMA competitions. the reason they keep their hands up is so they don't get hit, and they can still generate enough power without using hikite. admittedly, you're unlikely to face a trained fighter on the street, but in my opinion its still a good idea to keep your hands up so you don't get hit, and that extra bit of power isn't really necessary. that is just an opinion though.

However, please have a look at Ryoto Machida (shotokanist who used a traditional karate reverse punch, (with hikite) to knock Rich Franklin out a while ago).

i'll try and find a video.

personally, i think using hikite to generate power has three problems. one, it leaves you open. two, its simply not necessary; i can generate plenty of power without pulling my other hand to my waist. three, there are kata movements where hikite cannot be explained as a power adding technique. i respect your point of view, i just don't agree with it. as i've said, the only test is what works for each of us.

[Jiffy]

It's too hard to reply to the dozen or so posts since I was last on, but I will say this. Hikite is an effective method for gaining power. Telegraphing is not.

As to weather it opens the defence or not, that depends on a whole load of situations, like the conditions of fighting, the opponent etc. When you consider that I can do about 6 punches a second (and I'm not fast compared to some), that means the person would have to see the hikite, decide to use the opening and acurately hit the target in a tenth of a second. Not likely.

[legkicker]

Lyota Machida is/was a Shotokan practitioner and his father is a Shotokan instructor in Brazil but...I wouldn't call him that anymore. He has gone to Thailand to train in Muay Thai, trains in BJJ now, too. He was with Team Inoki for a while, and yes, he was a great shotokan competitor when he was younger. Like anyone with common sense that fights in MMA long enough that wants to win, they switchover to Muay Thai, BJJ, Wrestling, Boxing, etc.

Look at Lyota's more recent fights and tell me where you see a gyakutsuki..I haven't seen him fight Franklin in a while but will review the fight again. Wasn't that fight on the Inoki bom ba ye card?

Ok, I found it and don't see what you're talking about? perhaps you saw a different version of this fight that I didn't see? Did they fight somewhere else before? I'm pretty sure they haven't: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHtSB2Z0olM

BTW, Machida has also trained in Sumo and I don't see him performing Sumo techniques in MMA neither, go figure. I still don't see a "traditional" gyaku tsuki that KO'd Franklin..hmmmm.

[Jiffy]

As previously mentioned, MMA competitions and fights on the street are two different things. It depends entirely on what particular situation you are talking about.

[juey palancu]

Legkicker,

Maybe you cant recognize a gyakutzuki. That was the punch (it was a textbook gyakutzuki too, look at the video again) which had Franklin knocked out on his feet right before that grazing maewashi geri. I'm sorry my friend, but I have been doing Shotokan for years and I have to tell you, Ryoto fighta like a Shotokanist, not like a muay thai or boxer (both of which I have also done, specially boxing). I do admit, however, that he must ahve picked his groundwork soemwhere else than a shotokan dojo.

Maybe recognizing a style is in the eye of the beholder?

respectfully

[Jiffy]

Recognising a style is DEFINATELY in the eyes of the beholder?

Why? Because there are only so many ways a human can fight, and therefore, the crossover between the styles are HUGE!

[DokterVet]

I actually definitely see the gyakutzuki in the Franklin fight.

I think Jiffy has a good point, that there is a huge crossover between styles because we are all using the human body.

As a former practitioner of karate, I've picked up on things in MMA that exist in karate, but were performed by non-karateka.

For example, I noticed in one Vitor Belfort fight that he used shiko-dachi extensively while holding his opponent to the fence and throwing punches. He didn't use it the way you normally see it in karate (he was using it to keep his bodyweight pressing on his opponent, and throwing powerful circular punches), but I was interested to see that the same way of positioning the human body was picked up by both Belfort (a primarily boxing and BJJ fighter) and by the founders of karate for use in combat.

That said, I personally like the punching techniques of boxing more than I like those of karate, despite having trained karate punches for much longer.

[legkicker]

This is funny to me...Ryota claims Karate as his style because of who his father is. I recognize Shotokan and a gyaku tsuki much more than you probably realize. I wouldn't call a left cross a gyaku tsuki...If you really want to call it hidari ashi gyaku tsuki, go for it. I definitely wouldn't pass a student for a rank if they performed punches this way but would in Muay Thai.

This fight was also in 03...If you saw Ryota's last fight in the WFA you'd see that his striking is even evolving more. Franklin has been more active and if they rematched I doubt the results would be the same. Ryota has delved into Muay Thai much more after this fight, and into BJJ, even competing in BJJ tournaments.

[Orca]

Your knowledge of Japanese terms is imprtessive, but I still see a gyakutzuki, not a left cross. (and I was a boxer, a leftie at that)

[Jiffy]

So true. As mentioned... the only way to apply differences is too look in more detail. But as far as I'm concerned, it's the greater motor movement that is more important. Just cos I see a guy throw a punch in the heat of the moment and the fist lands vertically doesn't mean he trains in a chinese style.