position of fist, on the hip or on the rib?

[alsey]

to me the use of hikite is to grasp the opponent's arm and pull him off balance while you attack him. unless i'm doing that, or punching with it, the hand stays up to cover.

to answer the question, in kata i've always had the hikite at the waist.

[Orca]

A punch done with hikite is WAY more powerful done without it. In traditional karate, hikite should always be use din tzuki (punch) techniques.

[alsey]

a huge swing is way more powerful than any karate punch, but that doesn't make it a good technique.

if using hikite to generate more power works for you, then use it that way. for me, the small increase in power isn't worth opening my face up. the only way hikite works for me is in a grasping and pulling action.

[Jiffy]

a huge swing is way more powerful than any karate punch, but that doesn't make it a good technique.

I, like many others would like to differ there. One of the elements of power is effeciency of movement, a swing has little. Although the leverage may feel faster, the reverse leverage placed on the should joint prevents it's ability to continue power through the target.

[juey palancu]

I agree with Jiffy. Also, like Orca said, if doing hikite leaves you open, you are doing it for too long or at the wrong time.

[alsey]

the huge swing probably isn't the best example. what i'm saying is that just because a particular movement adds power, doesn't mean its necessarily a good technique. if you chamber a punch excessively, it adds power, but also alerts the opponent to what you're going to do.

you have to do what works for you. i find that drawing my hand to my waist creates too much of an opening, so i don't do it that way.

I agree with Jiffy. Also, like Orca said, if doing hikite leaves you open, you are doing it for too long or at the wrong time.

to that i would say if it doesn't leave you open, then you're not fighting anyone with enough skill. we can criticise eachother's fighting methods (even though we havn't seen eachother fight), but the only real test is whether the technique works or not.

[juey palancu]

the huge swing probably isn't the best example. what i'm saying is that just because a particular movement adds power, doesn't mean its necessarily a good technique. if you chamber a punch excessively, it adds power, but also alerts the opponent to what you're going to do.

you have to do what works for you. i find that drawing my hand to my waist creates too much of an opening, so i don't do it that way.

I agree with Jiffy. Also, like Orca said, if doing hikite leaves you open, you are doing it for too long or at the wrong time.

to that i would say if it doesn't leave you open, then you're not fighting anyone with enough skill. we can criticise eachother's fighting methods (even though we havn't seen eachother fight), but the only real test is whether the technique works or not.

Well, the hikite is done with the non-punching hand, so one doesnt chamber before punching, unless one is doing a combination, so there should be no problem alerting the opponent. It actually gives you a wider range of techniques to employ.

As for the "not fighting somenone with enough skill":Look, people have been doing hikite for hundreds, probably thousands of years. If it was such a piece of cake for someone with enough skill to catch them, they would have sfor sure stopped doing it. Just like Orca above, I have sparred good boxers and kickboxers and I've never been caught doing hikite.

respectfully,

Gero

[bushido_man96]

It would be interesting to know when practitioners actually started placing the hand on the ribs/hips, and what facilitated it at the time. You don't really see it in pictures of medieval or ancient Western styles, so it may be a soley Far Eastern concept. Not sure, just what I have noticed.

[alsey]

Well, the hikite is done with the non-punching hand, so one doesnt chamber before punching, unless one is doing a combination, so there should be no problem alerting the opponent. It actually gives you a wider range of techniques to employ.

i wasn't talking about hikite in that case. i was saying if you pull your arm back before punching, you will get more power, but it alerts your opponent to what you're going to do. i'm trying to say that just because a movement (any movement) adds power, it doesn't necessarily make it a good movement to use in combat.

As for the "not fighting somenone with enough skill":Look, people have been doing hikite for hundreds, probably thousands of years.

more like one hundred, in the sense you are talking about. it started with itosu when he altered a lot of karate techniques so the art could be taught safely to children. before that, i'm pretty certain that hikite was taught as part of grappling techniques. even in 1925, funakoshi wrote in rentan goshin karate jutsu:

"the meaning of the hikite, or pulling hand, is to grab the opponent's attacking hand and pull it in whilst twisting it as much as possible so that his body is forced to lead against the defender."

If it was such a piece of cake for someone with enough skill to catch them, they would have sfor sure stopped doing it.

they have stopped doing it in the big MMA competitions. everyone strikes like a boxer with their hands up.

Just like Orca above, I have sparred good boxers and kickboxers and I've never been caught doing hikite.

like i said, do what works for you. i'll do what works for me.

[juey palancu]

Alsey,

I'm not trying to change what anyone does or doesnt. I used to be a boxer myself, and I happen to prefer doing hikite (when punching). I'm just sayting that the arguments presented here about the lack of effectiveness of the technique dont hold water.

I disagree with your interpretation and timeline for the use of hikite. Chinese martial artists have been doing it for at least 5 hundred years, coming from the yin/yang, balance concepts of Bodhidarma. Okinawan karatekas (like Funakoshi)got it from them. Sensei Funakoshi did not invent the concept. Most Shaolin kenpo styles have hikite and use it when striking.

As for the MMA, these competitions are more akin to boxing/kickboxing in terms of the striking strategy (trading blows/techniques, staying in the pocket, trying to dominate the opponent instead of trying to defend oneself). In karate, one doesnt plow into harm's way to prove one is tough and to win the judges over with agression (in which case, it probably is better to have both hands up near the chin at all times). Traditonal Karate is a defensive art that (usually) prefers to use timing and distance, striking when the time is right with maximimum power (thus hikite). However, please have a look at Ryoto Machida (shotokanist who used a traditional karate reverse punch, (with hikite) to knock Rich Franklin out a while ago).

sorry for the long post,

respectfully,

Gero

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Nidan, Traditional Shotokan