Vertical or Horizontal Fist?

[Kajukenbopr]

Vertical for straights and hooks to the body.

definitely.

though I avoid using hooks in fights.

In Kajukenbo(mostly kenpo): we mix the 2 to fit the situation better.

Why no hooks to the body? Up close, if you hook to the ribs, you'll get them to drop their guard (or beak their ribs) to set-up something to the head. If you're close enough to hook to the head, you might as well throw an elbow-strike, unless this is a friendly fight.

mostly I use low vertical punches(when attacking the body)- has the same effect that a hook but without looping and leaving openings as hooks do(they're faster)

However, if I need to use a hook, I will use it(leopard form crushes ribs using hooks)

[unknownstyle]

in my system we learn both, horizontal is used in the matsumura forms and vertical in the shorinji. and our basics are made up of both

[White Warlock]

Unknownstyle, that is good, and i'm glad you are being instructed in both.

This thread is interesting, mostly because i had a similar discussion somewhere else just yesterday. I suppose i'll cut and paste:

One of the greater benefits with the twisting action (of a horizontal strikes) is that it 'activates' and puts into motion all the muscles in the forearm to participate in the strike, rather than the vertical strike that activates and puts into motion only a few. Thus, while it may 'seem' that the vertical punch is more sturdy, it actually has less muscles tightened at the moment of impact to ensure the wrist remains rigid.

However, there is validity in the idea that someone using a vertical punch is less likely to incur a wrist injury. The greatest injuries to wrists are due to abrupt motion to the left or right (direction of the thumb or index finger), although injuries do also occur with abrupt up or down motions. Since the human body is mostly cylindrical, and posed vertically, a horizontal punch is more likely to end up impacting a left/right curvature of the opponent's body, and thus increasing the likelihood of a distorted, or even deflected, strike. This not only could pose injury to the wrist, but also deflect some of the power generated.

Then again, to avoid the same fate associated with a horizontal (or twisting) punch, a vertical punch needs to maintain a horizontal plane when implemented. I.e., it can't strike upward or downward without presenting potential injury to the wrist in the same manner that a horizontal strike would. Therefore, while the horizontal strike requires more muscle interaction, and thus an increase in the time required to implement, it does allow for a more varied vertical targeting without changing the body's vertical plane.

An aside: Strikes initiated from the centerline (as those from wing chun) are vertical. The arguments above, between the horizontal and vertical strikes, are in regards to pivot, or wing-deployed, strikes. These particular types of strikes have a natural curve to their actions, and thus are more amenable to horizontal (or twisting) strikes. On the other hand, centerline-generated strikes have virtually no curve. It is simply not feasible to perform a centerline-generated strike with a horizontal end result (try it).

To throw one more mix into this: I've developed, through the Chinese systems i've studied, a hybrid of the horizontal and vertical strikes. In this, the manner in which strikes are deployed is dependent upon where the target is. In order to give insight into this, i want you to examine the below sketch i made and think of a car's steering wheel... and where your hand ends up. If you strike high, your palm is down (horizontal). If you strike low, your palm is up (uppercut). If you strike on an even plane, the strike is vertical. If you strike centerline, the strike is vertical.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v283/White_Warlock/steer.gif

Of course, this model does not quantify all strikes, and only addresses strikes geared towards generating force towards the center, or mid-plane.

[Jiffy]

I have trained with both, depending on the style and I have to say that I like both for different situations.

Verticle Fist -

I quite like this for when I am doing close quater trapping and attacking the upper part of the body. I find that it is faster and more direct. Verticle fist (when used with the thum on top) also has the advantage of being used to having the thum out and is therefore less of a transition when you want to use the thumb to stike such areas as the groin, temple, neck and various other sensitivity.

Horizontal Fist -

I would certainly agree that there is a greater tension in the arm during a horizontal fist and for this reason it feels a lot more powerful. The bones are in line and therefore it can produce a more powerful impact. Also, with the horizontal fist, the thumb usually held underneath meaning that it holds a tigher fist and is also less prone to thumb locks or being caught in gi's. The other advantage of the horizontal fist is it is consistant with the Shotokan blocks we do in that we use rotation (in the case of blocks, it's used for extra deflection)

Conclusion (in my opinion)

Verticle = Faster, More Direct, Thumb Techniques

Horizontal = More powerful, Safer, Consistant with blocks.

[Meguro]

mostly I use low vertical punches(when attacking the body)- has the same effect that a hook but without looping and leaving openings as hooks do(they're faster)

However, if I need to use a hook, I will use it(leopard form crushes ribs using hooks)

OK. We're on the same page. "Hook" is boxing terminology which can confuse a MA discussion. I wasn't advocating the looping my use of the term "hook" may have indicated. Still, you make a good point.

[Isshinryu_heart]

The reasons I was taught that a vertical fist is more effective are

1 - it takes slightly less time to throw - time that can really matter in a fight

2 - some of the power behind the punch is lost in turning the fist, so a vertical punch is more powerful because it is directed straight to the target.

3 - in addition to the vertical punch being more powerful, it can also be much more painful, since all the energy behind the punch is directed into the top 2 knuckles instead of spread out over the entire fist

**This is only for straightfoward punches, in other techniques turning the fist is inevitable, such as hooks, uppercuts, backfists, etc.

As for the claim that you have more/less of a chance of injuring your wrist using a vertical punch compared to horizontal - anyone can injure themselves using any type of punch if their form is off.

[Jiffy]

3 - in addition to the vertical punch being more powerful, it can also be much more painful, since all the energy behind the punch is directed into the top 2 knuckles instead of spread out over the entire fist

As for the claim that you have more/less of a chance of injuring your wrist using a vertical punch compared to horizontal - anyone can injure themselves using any type of punch if their form is off.

Just wanted to correct a couple of things..

A horizontal fist should also only hit with the first two nuckles, just the same as the verticle. This ensures smaller contact point as you said, but also places the bones inline.

While it is true that anyone can injur themselves with a incorrect punch, the chances of injury are higher with a verticle punch due to the lack of muscle and tendon tension. Having said that, for some people (like myself in some circumstance), that is a small risk for the advantage of a faster punch.

[Anbu Alex]

oh ok i get it i think we have a punch like that in taijutsu ima use it next time i spar

[glockmeister]

I like my straight punches to be on a 45 degree angle.

[Jay]

I have been taught horizontal but when i train i always use a verticle fist as it is faster which in turn means it is more powerful and is more biomechanically stable