Best Training for real life.

[SubGrappler]

I tried to look-up in Google the stories of the street fights these guys got into (especially Tim Sylvia with the SEALS) but couldn't find them. I'm interested in reading about them. Do you have links that I could read the stories, or do you have the time and patience to write about how they did in their street fights?

They were mentioned on sherdog. You may be able to find something about Tim Sylvia's incident, though I remember it happening awhile ago. You can ask Bas Rutten directly- he posts on that board.

When it comes to discussing the use of MA for real life, I think the best examples are people who have actually used MA in fight-to-the-death situations, usually elite military unit members. An example is this US special forces soldier who killed a Taliban or Al Qaeda personality in hand-to-hand combat: http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0HZY/is_2_16/ai_113304592. Unfortunately, the article and medal citation don't identify what technique the soldier used to kill the guy, but whatever it was it appears to have been quick and effective.

The problem I have with referring to incidents such as this is that they're often blown way out of proportion. First off, I have friends who have been in the marines, army, navy, and even air force. Hand to hand combat is NOT heavily emphasized in the armed forces due to the simple reason that we have firearms now. As a result, while hardcore soldiers, these people in the armed forces are not exactly hand to hand unarmed combat specialists in comparison with professsional fighters

Another thing to take into account is that the US economy is very well off, and has a surplus of food. Because of this, Americans are often much larger and stronger on the average than most any other nation in the world.

For example, one of my friends was stationed in Iraq and was talking about the physical testing they were putting the Iraqi police force through (since we're trying to help them govern themselves and get up on their own two legs). He said that the average upper body strength of a typical Iraqi man was amazingly poor. The average number of maximum pushups was like 5, and almost none can do a single pullup. Consider that the marines I believe have a requirement of 20 pullups to graduate boot camp, and you'll understand what I mean when I say that your typical American grunt soldier will be a physical specimen compared to a random terrorist. Now you ask yourself if he killed this guy because of a martial arts technique, or if he was simply so physically superior that it was barely a fight.

Beyond that, the Army hand to hand combative manual is based around Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.

[SubGrappler]

1) Vs. 6 Navy Seals: IF this happened (big IF--who related this story, anyway?), it was only because the SEALS didn't want to go to prison for killing a civilian. SEALS are taught mastery of a few (20 or so) unarmed moves to disable and kill quickly and silently--that's what they do. Wouldn't look good on a police report taken later while standing over a dead body.

Tim Sylvia is a big man (6'8, 265lbs) so he fits the big if predicament.

Anyways, no, it wasnt because they didnt want to kill Tim Sylvia (or anyone else they get into a fight with) it was because they didnt have a locked an loaded MP5 or a 9mm on the side, or possibly even a boot knife. Professional fighters spend their career doing unarmed combat. Professional soldiers spend their career learning how to conduct warefare (which is very often done with guns). I vaguely remember the details of the story (since it happened awhile ago) but I do believe Sylvia was accompanied by a friend, who may have also been a professional fighter, so it wasnt as if he took all 6 guys by himself.

Not many people who truly, routinely train (and I don't mean those who could if they had time to think about it, because when instinct takes over, we do what we've trained to do) but who practice putting out eyes, breaking limbs, shredding joints, crushing tracheas, and other things guaranteed to get one sued and imprisoned if used outside of life-threatening situations, are more likely to survive a deadly attack.

You're training partners must consist largely of now handicapped, maimed, arthritis suffering partners- outside of those who are in the morgue.

People always bring up this argument about "you fight how you train" and then talk about how they practice deadly techniques to defeat safer "sportive" techniques. If this statement is true, then all the deadly techniques you practice wont work either- how many eyes have you actually gouged out? How many tracheas have you crushed? How often have you tried to do this against a resisting opponent- someone who refuses to let you try it against them. Its just as UseofForce explained- so many people have this conception that the human body is overly frail. Its called a fight for a reason, and while hollywood painted this brilliant image of a small humble man tossing a larger arrogant biker through the wall with the flick of his wrist, ripping his neck out with a quick strike, or knocking him unconcious with a beautiful arial kick, this just isnt how fights happen in real life.

The whole thing goes back to the argument as to which is better- practicing deadly techniques in a controlled kata against unresisting opponents, or practicing safe techniques against a resisting opponent. Anyone who is unaware of how Judo became so popular, it is because its founder, Jigoro Kano, favored the sportive techniques and soundly defeated almost every traditional japanese ju jitsu school in Japan within 5 years of opening his Judo school.

[SubGrappler]

I'm a wartime vet, too, and the SEALS I occasionally served with wouldn't really talk much about technique, or the speicifics of their work (but then, once I sensed their reluctance, didn't really press them either). But there was no question that if they engaged any enemy, the object was killing--not a belt ranking, or a world 'title', or bragging rights over some street fight. And even though we were on the same side, and they were always polite and actually nice guys in my experience--they were scary as h***. I'd be surprised if the best sport fighter in the world lasted more than 5 or 6 seconds against even one of them if he stood in the way of one of their missions.

I commend you for your service, but who do you think is teaching these soldiers their hand to hand techniques? I had the pleasure of training with a kid who was going to SEAL camp and he was quite the physical specimen. Incredibly strong, amazing endurance, and as humble as could be, but he still fell victim to submissions like everyone else.

The best sport fighter wouldnt last 5 or 6 seconds IF that soldier was armed. If its a hand to hand fight, then he did something wrong.

[Treebranch]

Basically if you're learning MA's you want to learn how to fight or learn how to kill. Weapons are more effecient if you want to kill. Each MA has it's context and does not fit any situation. Some are design for the ring and some are not. That's what makes choosing the MA of your preference so personal. People are almost religious in their zeal for their MA. That's great. It's really simple a champion boxer will win a boxing match against a UFC champ and vice versa. The rules change the fight changes. The key to real life is there are no rules, so avoid fighting at all costs. It's simply not worth it.

[DeadCell]

The first thing I learned from Army H2H was and I qoute " In a H2H combat situation, the winner is going to be the guy whose buddy shows up first with a gun ". Special Operations don't recieve any special kill you in 5 seconds, and until 92 the system was full of faults. Who helped turn this around...the Gracie's. This snap your neck in 5 seconds doesn't exist. H2H in the military is meant to get the oppnebt on the ground and beat him until you can pull a knife of pistol.

In a recent story I heard a soldier wascoming into a room where insurgents were shooting out a window (I believe he got seperated from his team during a fire fight as any CQB operation needs multiple people) anyway, he runs into the room and shoots two guys and a third jumps on his back. He flipped the guy over and ended up breaking his neck (he didn't know itat the time) But the guys arm was down his body armor, so he took out his pistol and gave him some contact shots.

Moral...The soldier did what he had to do enable himself to pull his secondary.

In a book by Charlie Beckwith, he tells of a test given to Delta Force. For their H2H combat test a SF Combat Instructor took 3 random guys and went into a gym to fight. The SF Instructor came out 5 min later and had to be taken to the hospital for a conciussion.

Moral...Tenacity, and will count for a lot (which all SpecOps guys have) and H2H before 92 was *.

So this is so long but Navy SEALS aren't gods and none I've met have scared me. I'm trained more than them in certain things (H2H being one of them) so it comes down to the individual....and the training they have.

6 on one with SEALs (or anybody), you will probably lose...unless your very fast.

[UseoForce]

In a story I read (It might be the same one you read), a Ranger burst into a room, shot the two Taliban (sp?) inside, but was clubbed from behind by a Taliban wielding a 2x4. His shoulder was dislocated, but when he hit the ground, it popped back in. Still, the terrorist was on top and was gouging at his eyes. The Ranger managed to yank him off by the hair, and break his neck. He finished the Taliban with his M9 (Meaning the Berretta Model 92F pistol, not the M9 bayonet.)

[Jp656]

I dont need all that, Im just offence

[UseoForce]

What do you mean?

[Ottman]

Best training for real life: Be able to run faster than anyone else, learn to stay out of trouble, and if you really live a dangerous lifestyle: in case of emergencies carry a gun.