Lack of offensive combinations in Karate styles

[P.A.L]

the other day in dojo i was thinking that we practice all the defesive combinatins , it allways starts with someone attacking and we learn the combinations for countering it, so when we spare offensively we basiclly do what ever we can think of. or we do something we learned from others , for example i use kicking under a high kick which i learned from Sensei Matsui's fights in tournoments(Kyokushin Karate)or jab combinations i learned from my sensei every time he knock me down. so i asked my sensei the reason and he told me that in sparing there is a lack of comitment, you jab but you pull back quickly to protect yourself or you kick and chamber quickly back but in real fight people commite to their attack and there is no pulling back , this is a time that a martial artist can use his defensive combination to counter. what do you think.

[IronWarrior]

I feel its very important to practice and throw your tecniques with commitment, and to have some contact when doing kumite.. you also have to practice equally how to 'attack' and defend one without the other equals zero..

[Hobbes]

Here are a few comments on this topic.

1. Many people have a strong fear of being hit.

2. An observation of training practice (drills) leads to sub maximal delivery karate moves.

3. Definite lack of a strategic frame work from which to practice.

Now this is a huge area of debate and I'm not covering much here, just a few thoughts regarding these three points.

1. (Many people have a strong fear of being hit.)When a person’s mind is preoccupied with "being hit" it disrupts the natural flow of things... Focus is divided and it reduces the chance of success. Its been my experience that this either results in the person fulfilling their worse case scenario of "being hit" or a technique that is weak and ineffectual. I always stress upon my students that being hit is an eventuality, and that one does not have to "like" being hit, but rather accepts that it "will" happen.. The best we can do is prepare our selves as best we can and deal with the situation as it unfolds. I have always believed that "chance favours the prepared mind".

2. (An observation of training practice (drills) leads to sub maximal delivery karate moves) In many a dojo, the number of techniques done in a row requires a student to "pace" themselves. This pacing results in sub maximal techiques. It frustrates me that I've had others say that I'm in poorer physical condition then themselves, since I am nearly exhausted after 20 kicks while they think that 100 gives better benefit.

What is the objective of the training here... a). Aerobic conditioning??? b).explosive technique delivery.

No marathoner would suggest that a 100meter sprinter has poor physical conditioning.

Most instructors are amateurs who have been trained by amateurs... They are not exercise physiologist or certified coaches with knowledge of training methodologies and the physiological processes that govern energy production in the human body.

next thing to point out is that few of us have exercised to our maximal ability. Pushing that boundary requires a level of effort, which many people can't or don't want to experience.

(had a 16 year old lad decide that the drills were to hard so he walked out of class without a word... it was the wrong class for him anyways as he never cared to do more than necessary)

3. (Definite lack of a strategic frame work from which to practice)Most good fighters kind a just "GET IT". training strives to provide a structured framework to develop, analyze and correct training errors so that we can move forward (for those of us who don't quite "GET IT" naturally). A lot of energy goes into style Vs substance and what is overlooked is what drives technique.

Context drives Strategy which drives tactics which shapes techniques.

This in turn generates results. Hopefully for the better..

trying to use a technique out of context will most likely result in failure. There seems to be never exhaustive end to the possibilities and the decision to use "what ever" variant in "what ever" situation is only less correct if it failed to achieve the objective.

Running for you life is a fine technique with an important objective but if the context was that you ran into the fire rather than away from it, then the technique of running is of little use.

A potentially helpful suggestion is to train with the frame of mind that you are always attacking, even when blocking. We've all heard this before, but injuring an assailant with a block disrupts their focus and concentration. You have controlled where their mind has gone and you have an edge. In competition, when blocking a leg (for example), you can make the person think twice about kicking you again.

Keep the mind in offensive mode, the block merely becomes sono aiita.

Think of it like this.. A good footballer drives for the goal and his objective is to kick the ball into the net. Everything that happens to this end is between where he is at and his objective. He's not concerned about the individual techniques with regards to foot work, he just does it, without much conscience thought. He’s formulating strategy on the fly to get around apposing players, while still focused on the objective of taking a shot on goal. One's blocks should thus become so automatic that they become facilitators to a defensive attack. a footballer driving for the goal is constantly defending his position to gain a tactical advantage while all the while looking to attack.

In many dojo, I’ve seen the blocking techniques practiced such that, everything is broken down step my step and it stays that way well into the upper ranks. While I don’t totally disagree with this, the discreet separation of one movement to the next seriously disrupts rhythm and flow. The timing between the techniques is artificial imposed by a “count” and can be counter productive.

Finally, there is no such thing as a counter in my dojo. Only attacks. If a person grabs me and raises a fist, they have already warranted an all out defensive attack. I do not need to wait until they have struck me with their pudgy little fist.

[angus88]

Hobbes - I like your points 1 and 3. But I have a different opinion on your #2. Your point in that one seems to be that pacing yourself will make you sloppy, or your delivery won't be as good as it would be otherwise.

Break that down - if I do a kick one time really well, does that mean I shouldn't bother to do two? If I know I'm going to kick a second time, does that automatically negate both kicks because odds are, they won't be as effective as if I just kicked once?

The thing about it is, even with perfect kicks, if you want to be in "fighting" shape, you shouldn't be exhausted after 20 kicks. And I'm not saying this because on the street you'll have to do over 20 kicks, but because there's a practical side to being able to do more than you need. In other words, if you can build yourself up to where doing 20 kicks is no big deal, if you needed to throw 5 kicks, they're probably going to be very good kicks. If your body can only handle 10 good kicks before collapse, you better hope all your fights are very short! If 20 kicks is wearing you out, how are you after the first minute in a two-minute fight? See my point?

And while people might be prone to pacing themselves during a routine (or saving themselves), that's not a reason to avoid drills. The students should be encouraged to give everything they've got with every punch and kick - not to pace themselves. It's their skill they're working on after all, so it's kind of up to them to maximize everything. If you just accept the fact that a student is going to be lazy and cut certain things out, you're catering to their laziness. That's not good for them or your school.

To answer your question, the objective of training is to become a better martial artist - which onbviously means different things to different people. But in my opinion, martial artist training requires both aerobic conditioning as well as explosive technique delivery, to use your words. And to use your runner analogy, fighting can be both a sprint and a marathon, depends on the fight. Best to train for both.

[Hobbes]

Your point in that one seems to be that pacing yourself will make you sloppy, or your delivery won't be as good as it would be otherwise.

Sloppy isn't the meaning I was conveying her. Sub-maximal technique may result from consistant and long term 100 kick drills. Additionally, one has a hard time learning new tasks when tired.

Break that down - if I do a kick one time really well, does that mean I shouldn't bother to do two? If I know I'm going to kick a second time, does that automatically negate both kicks because odds are, they won't be as effective as if I just kicked once?

This isn't what I mean, but I will explain further down.

The thing about it is, even with perfect kicks, if you want to be in "fighting" shape, you shouldn't be exhausted after 20 kicks. And I'm not saying this because on the street you'll have to do over 20 kicks, but because there's a practical side to being able to do more than you need. In other words, if you can build yourself up to where doing 20 kicks is no big deal, if you needed to throw 5 kicks, they're probably going to be very good kicks. If your body can only handle 10 good kicks before collapse, you better hope all your fights are very short! If 20 kicks is wearing you out, how are you after the first minute in a two-minute fight? See my point?

I don't disagree with this, but I will guarantee that if I hooked you up in the lab and you did 20 maximal kicks, the next 20 are going to be much less powerful, and the next 20 and so on. This is just the way it is.

And while people might be prone to pacing themselves during a routine (or saving themselves), that's not a reason to avoid drills. The students should be encouraged to give everything they've got with every punch and kick - not to pace themselves. It's their skill they're working on after all, so it's kind of up to them to maximize everything. If you just accept the fact that a student is going to be lazy and cut certain things out, you're catering to their laziness. That's not good for them or your school.

Some students are lazy.. unfortunately this is so.. can't change that.. but if you encourage muscle memory by doing only long exhausting drills than this isn't balanced training.

To answer your question, the objective of training is to become a better martial artist - which onbviously means different things to different people. But in my opinion, martial artist training requires both aerobic conditioning as well as explosive technique delivery.

The statement of becoming a better MA and it means many different things to many people is an area which we can"Agree". I never suggested that you should remove the aerobic component in training. Quite the contrary. The aerobic system allows the anaerobic pathways to replenish their supply of adenosine tri-phosphate (ATP) and phosphocreatine and to deal with lactate, which attaches to free nerve endings and disrupts the nervous transmission causing that wobbly feeling. I'm not going to bore anyone with the details, but karate is primarily explosive in nature with strategic periods of rest. There is also a significant delay before the aerobic system can start supplying the body with sufficient energy to maintain high levels of work. These systems are overlapped, they are not discreet systems.

This is boring unless you are a true egghead like myself so the verdict here is, that we only have enough juice to do maximal work for 10 seconds on the very outside and that’s if you are a world class athlete and at the peak age. The rest of us have about 7(not exact) seconds before we MUST reduce the intensity of effort as the next energy system kicks in, then we have about 40~50 seconds. At that point the third system (aerobic) is beginning to kick into high gear, but it still hasn’t reached maximal output for another few moments. Ever wonder why when you start exercising you feel like crap for the first 10 minutes and then all of a sudden you feel fine?

Refer to Exercise Physiology: Energy, Nutrition, and Human Performance

William D. McArdle, Frank I. Katch, Victor L. Katch ( a good reference often used in universities)

Online reference: http://www.brianmac.demon.co.uk/energy.htm

Decent graph and average times for the utilization of high energy molecules in the human system.

What I'm suggesting here is that if we don't balance our training to mind these things, then we teach our students to practice a certain way. If you habitually do 20 minutes of steady and intensive drills, and the students know this, they aren't going to train themselves to deliver maximal techniques (85%maximal effort *diminished returns). They will drop the intensity so they can make to the end. We need to manage and plan our classes so you can get them to max out their techniques and then rest by doing stretching etc.

I have to disagree with one statement however.. Karate is not a marathon, it is a sprint *context must be recognised however* if you haven't dispatched with your opponent within the first 120 seconds or if you are against multiple assailants you should be running for your life.

Actually what I mean here is that an engagement from the point of threat to the point of conclusion can last quite a while and without a single blow from either side. I'm referring to 120 seconds of constant physical effort with no rest. Sorry folks its not like the movies.

in reality engagements occur in spurts with a lot of rest in between. Its up to us a MA managers to use strategy and tactics to maximize our energy reserves and replenish them when we can. ie(1~2 second engagement with 4~7 seconds of relative submaximal work). Wrestlers know this very well. If they aren't aerobically conditioned, they can not go the distance.. kata is brilliant, its a ballet of explosive and calm.

Next installment: diminished returns... increase effort->decrease performance

[NidaninNJ]

Next installment: diminished returns... increase effort->decrease performance

OK. I'll admit I didn't really get everything in your previous post, Hobbes, but I am looking forward to that 'next installment' you mentioned.

[Nidankid23]

I personally feel that Defense only dictates the nature of your technique, protecting yourself, and not the actual technique itself. Although there are some techniques and stances that are used primarily for defensive situations, I beleive the only difference between the first jab thrown (offensivley) and the oppenents jab (defensive) is their reason for throwing it, the technique itself does not change. Thats my two cents at least .

[AirBorne-karateka]

the other day in dojo i was thinking that we practice all the defesive combinatins , it allways starts with someone attacking and we learn the combinations for countering it, so when we spare offensively we basiclly do what ever we can think of. or we do something we learned from others , for example i use kicking under a high kick which i learned from Sensei Matsui's fights in tournoments(Kyokushin Karate)or jab combinations i learned from my sensei every time he knock me down. so i asked my sensei the reason and he told me that in sparing there is a lack of comitment, you jab but you pull back quickly to protect yourself or you kick and chamber quickly back but in real fight people commite to their attack and there is no pulling back , this is a time that a martial artist can use his defensive combination to counter. what do you think.

I am assuming you are a member of the shorinkan under nagasato senei,

and if so I know exactly how you feel. But after two or three years of traing I began to notice that we are not in a defencive posture at all. Think of it more along the lines of attacking at the same time with an effective tecnique against the others. For instance make your blocks into strikes by thinking of them as say a smash to your partners for arm.

Now as far as combinations of punching and kicking tecniques during free sparring, watch your partner and how they react to certain moves for example when you kick does he or she lower thier gaurd at all?

After some time you will be able to use thier own reactions against them and find combinations that work for you, but you must have the patiance to observe many partners through many rounds befor this will come clear to you. also pay close attention to how you react to certain tecniques because what opens you up may also open up your partner.