What it means to be a Master

[ovine king]

i'm going to do the usual pointing out that neither the japanese term used in the teaching of their styles, nor in the chinese schools is the term "master" used.

this is purely a western term.

[Zaine]

Aodhan wrote: Any chimpanzee can master the moves (And they've taught kata to chimps, so that's not intended to be a slam), but to truly be a master involves a much more rounded approach than simple physical mastery.

Exactly! How about maturity and development of one's character. It isn't so much about age as it is about experiences and wisdom. An 18 year old just doesn't have these qualities to the degree to be considered a "master".

I am going to have to disagree with that to an extent. On one hand, maturity comes with age, most okinawan masters werent able to achive that rank untill after 35, and it still is that way there. But to say that an 18 year old doesnt hold the maturity is wrong. You cant know that, that is a steriotype and it is wrong just to flat out say something like that. Not all 18 year olds are bumbling idiots who do only drink and smoke. There are some smart and mature ones out there, you just need to look. But as for the master thing, i wouldnt give it to someone unless they had a solid understanding of when to use and not to use karate. I can understand where yall are coming from with the comment, but you have to look past that for some people, or your just going to be one of those people that goes around thinking every teenager steals, smokes, and drinks.

[DragonMike]

Aodhan wrote: Any chimpanzee can master the moves (And they've taught kata to chimps, so that's not intended to be a slam), but to truly be a master involves a much more rounded approach than simple physical mastery.

Exactly! How about maturity and development of one's character. It isn't so much about age as it is about experiences and wisdom. An 18 year old just doesn't have these qualities to the degree to be considered a "master".

I am going to have to disagree with that to an extent. On one hand, maturity comes with age, most okinawan masters werent able to achive that rank untill after 35, and it still is that way there. But to say that an 18 year old doesnt hold the maturity is wrong. You cant know that, that is a steriotype and it is wrong just to flat out say something like that. Not all 18 year olds are bumbling idiots who do only drink and smoke. There are some smart and mature ones out there, you just need to look. But as for the master thing, i wouldnt give it to someone unless they had a solid understanding of when to use and not to use karate. I can understand where yall are coming from with the comment, but you have to look past that for some people, or your just going to be one of those people that goes around thinking every teenager steals, smokes, and drinks.

I agree completely. I think that martial artist, Masters in particular, need to set a good example by not stereotyping. This includes ageism as well. We should not under estimate anyone. No mater how good you are there is alawys somene better.

[TAZ]

Aodhan wrote: Any chimpanzee can master the moves (And they've taught kata to chimps, so that's not intended to be a slam), but to truly be a master involves a much more rounded approach than simple physical mastery.

Exactly! How about maturity and development of one's character. It isn't so much about age as it is about experiences and wisdom. An 18 year old just doesn't have these qualities to the degree to be considered a "master".

It seems that many posters here have misinterpreted the point I was trying to get across. As you will notice in my previous post, or maybe not, I did agree that "it wasn't so much about age". I was using an 18 year old as an example, not a general stereotype. And yes, I do agree that there may be some 18 year olds that could have a level of maturity that would make some 40 to 50 year olds look like teenagers, but I stand by what I said previously. To reiterate a little bit, in 18 years of life there can be many experiences that haven't taken place to truly test ones character and wisdom. Lastly, I wanted to highlight what I feel was an important word that may have been overlooked in my previous post. The word was "degree". I apologize if the previous post was taken personal by anyone. I was a teenager once .

[Zaine]

Thank you for clearing that up, but that post wasnt directed at you alone, but i get it now.

[Ripper]

In my style there is an age minimuim of 21 to be a Master. I was fortunate to be promoted to Master when I was 25. I have seen my instructor deny people who were older from testing to be a Master, because of their attitude. I think we need to judge people based on their character not on the year on their Drivers Liscence.

This makes me wonder. How do you (you; not personally but in general) determine whether someone is a "master"? How can you judge people by their character? Who are you to decide whether someones character is better then the other?

And the other things mentioned in earlier posts. What have the things you do for the community to do with a martial art? Those two things have nothing to do with each other. You're training a martial art and not "how to be the best character on earth".

[DragonMike]

In my style there is an age minimuim of 21 to be a Master. I was fortunate to be promoted to Master when I was 25. I have seen my instructor deny people who were older from testing to be a Master, because of their attitude. I think we need to judge people based on their character not on the year on their Drivers Liscence.

This makes me wonder. How do you (you; not personally but in general) determine whether someone is a "master"? How can you judge people by their character? Who are you to decide whether someones character is better then the other?

And the other things mentioned in earlier posts. What have the things you do for the community to do with a martial art? Those two things have nothing to do with each other. You're training a martial art and not "how to be the best character on earth".

I think that being a Master and being someone with a good character are one and the same. My style teaches that a martial artist is supposed to be a leader in the community. Therefore, the things that you do in the community are very relevant to being called a Master. As for judging other people, you can never be totally certain, but the individual that I mentioned had been araested a few times for drug violations. My instructor would n't let him test for Master because the thought he would make a poor representative of the art.

[shogeri]

If someone could start a trend to move away from the term 'master', and onto to something else that would be great.

In the meantime, a Mater is sometime who is a leader in their local community, within the Martial Art community, and most importantly within the system of Martial Art in which they belong.

And when I say leader, I mean everything the word implies and more.

They must have vision, compassion, integrity, humility, honor, interperson skills (be a people person), effective communiciation skills, ability to build and maintain cohesive units of qualified people below them, and so on.

Leaders do not just lead. They formulate and employ methods in which others follow them, and at some point, lead others as well, either collectively as a team, or individually.

The most important way they do this is by implanting the vision of what they are doing into the heart and minds of those who are looking toward their leaders for answers.

Just some lose thoughts I am putting out there!

Later!

[Ripper]

I think that being a Master and being someone with a good character are one and the same.

We don't use the term Master, but I know enough people that have high degrees who are obnoxious, arrogant, and what not.

Anyhow, you (or anyone else) are not answering my questions.

[Ripper]

They must have vision, compassion, integrity, humility, honor, interperson skills (be a people person), effective communiciation skills, ability to build and maintain cohesive units of qualified people below them, and so on.

Leaders do not just lead. They formulate and employ methods in which others follow them, and at some point, lead others as well, either collectively as a team, or individually.

The most important way they do this is by implanting the vision of what they are doing into the heart and minds of those who are looking toward their leaders for answers.

And you learn all this by doing martial arts????!!!!!!!!