Chi Knockouts?

[shogeri]

These are some great post!

I study Taijiquan Pressure Point Fighting, and have also studied Okinawan Tuite.

Grabbing and or rubbing (to a given point area) is not fighting.

People do have a tolerance to pain. Some have a higher tolerance to accupoint manipulation.

A strike to specific areas, decreases the ability to withstand the effect, since it is then coupled with highly charged strikes, that just don't quit.

One hits, and they keep hitting, and moving the opponents center, and working the entire body, as they furiously strike to all the major areas, over and over.

Not all points work the same on people.

That is why trying to pick and choose certain points in a manner of 'grab then press' is totally unreasonable.

Even in Okinawan Goju Ryu we were taught to strike to a point.

We were demonstrated the effect by using pressure or massage, but the application of the technique involved striking to the point over and over until some degree of accuracy was achieved.

Just some loose thoughts again...Others may vary, and that's a good thing.

[bald1rides]

I believe that if you combine chi with more chi, then you get an effective knockout combo. It's the vodka in it, see...

http://www.mixed-drink.com/FrozenDrinks/ChiChi.html

[Sensei Rick]

I believe that if you combine chi with more chi, then you get an effective knockout combo. It's the vodka in it, see...

http://www.mixed-drink.com/FrozenDrinks/ChiChi.html

Now that's a good post

On a more serious note I just had the pleasure of testing my skill on a drunk wife beater at a gas station at 2 am. This guy was a huge indian guy about 6 '4" and about 300 pounds, and he managed to get every pound of himself drunk. He was beating his wife, while myself and many cab drivers were hearing it. I got her to cross the street and stand by me and be "safe" He came across the street wanting his wife, who refused my request of her to go inside the station and call the cops. They yelled around me for several minutes and I tried to defuse the situation. I kept backing up, keeping him in the kicking range and me away from the booze odor. I knew that if i started to hit him, he wouldn't feel it. he wasn't feeling anything. And he was so drunk he could barely manage a good beating on his wife. I did manage to keep him in a quick joint lock till the good guys of the police department got there. So my point is alcohol may not take them down, in fact it can help them stay up. and there is no honor or skill in defeating a big drunk guy that can't move. The cops were glad to see that I didn't try anything bad, so was my sensei. Alcohol can do both, knock em out, and keep them up.

[elbows_and_knees]

hate to tell ya all this, but your kinda wrong. I saw my sensei knocked out by dillman. He too, was a non believer. A good friend of ours, Tony hughs, hired dillman for the seminar. He is too, a nonbeliever. He tells the story quite funnily. He is standing in front of dillman, then he got tapped, lightly by dillman on different point of his body. He says he then pointed his finger at Dillman and said "Ha, you're a phony, I knew this stuff didn't work." He then looked down at the ground and saw himself on the ground, being revived by dillman and others. Then his head was back in his own body, and he didn't know where he was, or who he was for about ten minutes. The whoe time that he thought that he was talking, telling the man he was a phoney, he was really lying knocked out on the ground. I've known my sensei for over 22 years, he was really knocked out. he was knocked out by a touch on his head, his wrist and i think a tap on his instep. It was freaking strange. I was very ill at the time and didn't "volunteer". Dillmans knockout are real tho. I didn't see this program, and haven't heard of him NOT touching someone to knock them out. Go see dillman yourself If he comes to your town, make sure your on a mat!!!!

The problem with that is your teacher cooperated - he wasn't fighting. I would bet money that had he been fighting, dillman couldn't hit the same three points as easily, and in time enough to KO him. That's why I say it's not practical.

[shogeri]

I too do not believe it is practical for the dillman method.

But ~ it is integrated into the Chinese Boxing system of Taijiquan.

It takes up to 10 years just to get enough of the basics down, especially in regards to the accupoint system, in order to be a level 1 instructor.

Ten years of internal work (the form and qigong), along with application and use of pressure point knowledge, each of which combined with various flowing or dynamic combat principles found in Chinese Boxing (Hao Chuan/Pao Chi/Taiji San Shou).

It takes a lifetime (or several) to know the form.

Note, when I say Taijiquan, I am not talking about the new age methods, nor am I promoting the form as used by eastern health systems. I speak of the system as it is related to it's Martial Art tradition and philosophy.

Dillman may understand the concept of pressure point application, but without the application of chinese boxing (flowing combat that implements internal energy - especially Taijiquan), all he is doing is manipulating the meridian system on a basic level.

The person who taught me can fight, and has gone to the ground, but I would be surprise to find someone who could get him there. I believe he goes down only when he wants to.

When he fights, if the level gets high enough, his eyes roll back, and his breathing changes, and he gets a direct link to his animal instinct of survival.

He is not representative of most teachers of Taijiquan, for His speed and accuracy and power are amazing for as few years as he has been doing it.

He can do things, that I haven't been able to, even after 25 years of doing this stuff.

------------

Just putting some thoughts out there..

[Sensei Rick]

I never said it was practicle, but only that it did work.

[tufrthanu]

Gee didn't realize this got moved on me. I don't hardly go into the internal styles board. But just as a follow up in the new issue of Black Belt Magazine, the one with Joo Bang Lees son on the cover, a reader got a letter published saying some of the same things we have been talking about regarding that show and the chi knockout effect. Apparently we aren't the only ones that question its reliability.

[btg]

I recently saw a program on Discovery channel or National Geographic channel I'm not sure which, in which the two scientists looked into chi knockouts. Now wally jay who I respect very much says he now beleives in George Dillmans system. On the show they had Leon Jay, wally's son, try to knock the scientist out with a no touch chi knockout. He failed. The scientists believe the knockouts operate under the Faith Healer concept. You believe it works therefore it does. Then they had George Dillman on to comment. He said well the scientist could have had his tongue in the wrong position. He also said that alternating your big toes up and down could cause a no touch knockout to fail. My question is is a system which can be foiled as easily as moving your big toe valid as a reliable self defense system?

I think that just about sums it up, "tongue in the wrong position" what a load of old tosh. Its about invading someones space or as was said the faith healer syndrome.

[btg]

It takes up to 10 years just to get enough of the basics down, especially in regards to the accupoint system, in order to be a level 1 instructor.

Why ten years? Apart from understanding what you are trying to do, the length of time it would take someone to learn any skill would depend on how dedicated they are.

I heard some Tai Chi teachers claiming one cannot possibly learn Tai Chi for self defence until they have been doing the form and puch hands for a number of years. And I am talking about self defence applications not some B/S moving without touching tosh.

Not certain how someone who has practiced and is practising untold numbers of differing martial arts is in a position to know anyway. Tai Chi is a complex and fascinating art which demands full time devotion to it not just a bit of this and a bit of that.

[Anbu Alex]

i believe in pressure point fighting but the way Dillman from what i see is going about it wrong in alot of internal martial arts i belive the chi knock out that dillman does is only used when there is an opening so unless this guy is super fast in a real fight against a trained fighter would have litte application