Old School!

[washjeff09]

I second that!! Osu!

[washjeff09]

The basis behind your opinion is good but a little more experience would have showed this not to be the case. Many systems were pretty much full contact at one time. They can now be considered "watered down" if that's the term you want to use, because they now fight point kumite thus the training has changed. If Kyokushin decided to get into the point circuit for some reason the same would happen.

Why would that happen? It probably won't but you never know. Maybe insurance becomes an issue because insurance companies want safety sparring gear. Maybe they don't want to insure knockown schools anymore as being too violent. Maybe "people' change and don't want to learn karate by fighting hard all the time and attendance falls compared to the softer schools. Then to stay in "business" which is what it is, Kyokushin would have to compete with other schools and soften up. This is what has happened to other systems.

It probably won't but my point is that it can.

To be honest, when I trained in Kyokushin I was amazed that we could get away with fighting bareknuckle knockdown in class (or tournament).

When I had my own school (Shotokan) you couldn't get insurance unless students wore gear including hand/foot gear as well as "headgear" This holds true for all schools I've seen. Some how Kyokushin gets around this. This is what has helped the so called watering down of some systems. I also trained full contact and bareknuckle in my dojo but was forced to have the safety equipment laying around in case inurance reps walk in, or the owner of the building.

Thanks for the info. I never really thought of it that way; however, even besides the kumite factor, it seems to be like some schools out there could do a little more to stay traditional and avoid the criticism. For some reason things like 20 different belts with the many charges that go along with them bothers me. Then I look at some of the black belts, whom have trained for 3 years exactly, and some are good, some are terrible, and some are just in between. It just shows they were shoved along the "belt line" for the same amount of time till they reached thier shodan. Your right I don't have as much experience as many here, but besides the kumite, it seems like the other issues I mentioned could definately be addresed and I do think that would help somewhat.

Osu

[Shorin Ryuu]

Hmm. Obsession over belts or even caring about them is in and of itself not very "old school".

"Old school tournament rules" and full-contact kumite aren't "old school" either.

Old school karate is purely self-defense with the objective of killing or incapacitating the opponent in the most efficient way possible. Even "old school tournament rules" add such a huge false dimension that limits the practitioner to inefficient methods.

I said this in the other post, but the sport orientation of much of what passes as karate nowadays was introduced long before karate was transmitted to the West.

[Tommy_P]

Hmm. Obsession over belts or even caring about them is in and of itself not very "old school".

"Old school tournament rules" and full-contact kumite aren't "old school" either.

Old school karate is purely self-defense with the objective of killing or incapacitating the opponent in the most efficient way possible. Even "old school tournament rules" add such a huge false dimension that limits the practitioner to inefficient methods.

I said this in the other post, but the sport orientation of much of what passes as karate nowadays was introduced long before karate was transmitted to the West.

There's a good point made here about old school being self defense.

If you want "old school" then you have to look at traditional Okinawan arts. This hard military type training that we see in the Japanese stystems is just that, pure Japanese. The art was made this way once it left Okinawa to Japan and the reason was based on making it competitive along the lines of Judo and Kendo. Ok, there were other reasons such as preparing the Japanese youth for the military but that's another story. Traditional training was hard but it wasn't about which school does kumite harder or full contact vs non. That's all a modern sports thing. Old school is still practiced in some Okinawan based dojo and it isn't about kumite as we think of it. It's about self defense coming out of kata, there is no competition of any sort, full contact or not. It's kihon, body conditioning/strengthening and equipment training (hojo undo), kata and working defenses. You're taught how to defend and hurt or kill someone, plain and simple.

I would venture to say that if it's Japanese it's a combat sport more than it's a traditional martial art.

Tommy

[Gen_Tora]

Why shotokan took such a heavy focus on hard training is more a way of cultural thinking then political. Bare in mind, at the time bushido was still seen as a "legacy" in Japan. Duty was seen as the most important thing to honor one's family. Budo philosophy didn't hit main stream until after Japan surendered to the US at the end of WWII. Then bushido became outlawed except as a cultural sport. So we messed up MA in Japan from there on.

But anyway, any MA that has roots before 1945 generally trained as a "hard form" to honor "Japan's Warrior-Heritage." A true warrior had to endure hardship, so you trained the way you fought. Those of us in the US military know that phrase all to well. Now bushido is an aniquated aspect of life like western chivary, & things become softer.

Order & rules give life to codes of honor. Enlightenment gives life to our own place in the world & the value of our life the lives of those we pass in life. Weak men need order to find power & fools need enlightenment to find reason. What man or woman is not in some fashion weak or a fool?

Something to consider...

[Shorin Ryuu]

Again, in terms of "old school karate", you musn't think Japanese, but Okinawan.

[kivikala]

Old school, hmmm... I began in '59 and my classes are still taught the way I was taught. Not much has changed in forty-six years. Training is harsh and demanding, to some, perhaps insane. The aspirations are to push ourselves beyond our perceived limits. It's not about fighting, self-defense or even kata. We are here polishing our own mentality and doing a practice, and in some small way to benefit the community. Anyone who wanted to tag along with us on the road we follow has always been welcome. It's the journey, not the destination. This is old school.

[Dragn]

Again, in terms of "old school karate", you musn't think Japanese, but Okinawan.

Why?

Japanese karate is different from the Okinawan arts. The influence of Japanese culture altered many aspects of the Okinawan arts making it something quite different. And it was named Karate. Wouldn't it be more accurate to refer to Okinawan arts as Kenpo?

While I would agree that perhaps there was alot lost in translation, Japanese Karate is a distinct art in itself, and played a very important and influential role the evolution of Martial Arts.

There is deffinately and old school mentality which is missing from many modern Karate dojo.

[Shorin Ryuu]

Because Japanese karate isn't "old school". Maybe it is for those off us living now, but as you say yourself, Japanese karate is different from Okinawan karate. My definition of old school karate has already been stated.

Perhaps it is a matter of semantics, but Japanese karate is pretty much synonymous with the term "modern karate". It may be modern karate with the trappings of traditional Japanese culture (of sorts), but it is still modern karate.

[kivikala]

Considering that "karate" never left Japan until after WWII. I figure here in the US "Old school" starts sometime in the mid-50's. Before that, it was "no school".