Old School!

[IronWarrior]

Just wonder how many off you come from the 'old school' of Karate, by that I mean before Karate become really 'sport' oreintated, and before black belts were given away easily e.t.c.. Now I see dojos on every corner poping up with students wearing flashy gis e.t.c.. but the basics seem to be missing and that true fighting spirit is not there.. I'am only 28 but I started in Karate when I was 5 in 1982 and it was different learning in the 80's as it is now gradings were tougher e.t.c.. seems some students have it easier now and are just pampered and instructors are afraid to push them hard.. I'am not saying all dojos are like this just seems Karate has become 'watered down' from say 20 years ago..

[b3n]

So...what exactly is your question?

Seemed like more of a statement.

[IronWarrior]

The question could be do you feel some instructors today and students lost the traditional aspects of Karate, that were more prevalent years ago then today.

[Tommy_P]

Yes and no.

I have seen many changes over the years.

I can say that training isn't like it was years ago and agree with some of what you said but I could also look at it in another way.

I could say that those "old schools" remain the same but now there are also the addition of other schools that are more geared toward sport and seem watered down. So that would equal a "no things haven't changed" but there are new schools out there practicing something different.

Back in the 60's what was popular was Judo. Well, not exactly popular what I should say is more well known. "If" you came across a martial arts school which wasn't too common it was usually Judo. Karate wasn't so well known yet and it may have been thrown in at a Judo school here and there. When I had my first class it was in a basement back then. There weren't "kids" classes in the 60's like today. What was common when I started was to be taught by a student who taught outside the school in a basement or some such area. If you could find a school and you were young, and I'm talking about young teen, not a pee wee or 7 or 8 year old that was unheard of, and could find a place to take you in you were thrown right in with the adults. Didn't like it, there's the door. There were no young kids. Instructors were big on hitting students who didn't perform well and quite often with a wooden weapon or a swift kick to the gut. No mats, no carpeting, no A/C, no kicking sheilds, no safety equipment, just hard work and a heavy, bloody canvas heavy bag. It wan't for everybody.

But was this because it was better or "the way to train" or is that the "old way"? No, it was because safety gear for kumite wasn't invented yet, not until Jhoon Rhee in the 80's. Puzzle mats didn't come about until years later. The list goes on, things just weren't available yet. It's kind of like saying, " a cell phone?" "Ha! When I started out I had to "dial" my phone, "if" I could find one". Does that mean it was better?

When the 70's rolled around and TV and movies made MA more popular it set the stage for the 80's which became the commercial age. Now people wanted to train for things like discipline, focus at their jobs, weight loss, some Asian culture and all kinds of things other than "fighting". This brought about the new breed of happy smiling fun karate.

To pay that rent for a place big enough to hold all the new students you had to commercialize. In comes the money makers "the kids"

The rest is history.

Meanwhile some of the "old school" remained the "old school".

Like me!

Tommy

[Drgnslyer]

For myself, I havn't seen a huge amount of the new karate *bright colours and so forth*...I found a traditional club here in town, and have only ever trained with them.

Now we use the new kimute gloves because we have to for competition, but in tournaments or training I've never personally used padding for my legs or arms...IMHO you need to know what a block genuinely feels like, and I feel it brings you closer to the reality of what you're doing...combat...instead of trying to distance yourself from the experience.

*again, that's just my opinion....I might just be firmly rooted in "old-school" mindsets*

I really don't know if I could take anyone seriously at first glance in a tournament if their gi was neon blue, or yellow, or even black for that matter. Especially with 'sponsor' labels on the gis...on my gi all I have is the juka label, and a 3 inch crest on the left side for my style...and that's it. I remember the first time I saw someone's gi with about six labels sewn onto it, and I couldn't understand why they would do that...but again...old school mentality i suppose.

Karate does end up becoming a business when you increase the volume...but (again my opinion) it's up to each individual sensei to make sure their students are being taught the philosophy behind the technique, and the mentality that one needs to advance through their training.

***end rant***

[ninjanurse]

I am very old school and I train and teach at a "modern dojang". IMO it is a matter of philosophy rather than what color gi you wear or how many belt levels there are. While it is true that there are many schools out there that have "watered down" their curriculums to make it more appealing to a society that demands more bang for the buck most are still teaching the spirit of budo in some form and IMO that is better than not teaching it at all.

[washjeff09]

osu!

I very much agree. I haven't trained as long as some people here (maybe around 9 years since I was five, and I'm 19 now) and I haven't trained in as many styles (TKD 3 years, then Kyokushin), I can sense that transformation. In a way and this is just my biased opinion, Kyokushin is one of those styles that would be hard to "water-down." It just seems logical to me, that to fight hard full contact kumite, one would have to train hard, and that if you're going to fight hard contact kumite, it would be hard to water down the training unless you want to get beat senseless!. But whenever I visit some of my friends' dojos, or training styles, it just seems like I see alot of unwarranted Black Belts, alot of belts in general (many colors with plenty of charges), and alot of colorful, fancy gis. Obviously to me in Kyokushin, you can have all the trophies in the front window but if you can't bring it in the ring you're not going to survive. I know that there are many styles in general that train the old fashioned way, but there are quite a few that are very generic expecially in my area.

[Tommy_P]

In a way and this is just my biased opinion, Kyokushin is one of those styles that would be hard to "water-down." It just seems logical to me, that to fight hard full contact kumite, one would have to train hard, and that if you're going to fight hard contact kumite, it would be hard to water down the training unless you want to get beat senseless!.

Hi,

The basis behind your opinion is good but a little more experience would have showed this not to be the case. Many systems were pretty much full contact at one time. They can now be considered "watered down" if that's the term you want to use, because they now fight point kumite thus the training has changed. If Kyokushin decided to get into the point circuit for some reason the same would happen.

Why would that happen? It probably won't but you never know. Maybe insurance becomes an issue because insurance companies want safety sparring gear. Maybe they don't want to insure knockown schools anymore as being too violent. Maybe "people' change and don't want to learn karate by fighting hard all the time and attendance falls compared to the softer schools. Then to stay in "business" which is what it is, Kyokushin would have to compete with other schools and soften up. This is what has happened to other systems.

It probably won't but my point is that it can.

To be honest, when I trained in Kyokushin I was amazed that we could get away with fighting bareknuckle knockdown in class (or tournament).

When I had my own school (Shotokan) you couldn't get insurance unless students wore gear including hand/foot gear as well as "headgear" This holds true for all schools I've seen. Some how Kyokushin gets around this. This is what has helped the so called watering down of some systems. I also trained full contact and bareknuckle in my dojo but was forced to have the safety equipment laying around in case inurance reps walk in, or the owner of the building.

Tommy

[Gen_Tora]

Karate has seen allot of changes, originally in Japan mats where used but kumite was bare knuckle. Also I remember how striking a post wrapped in cord to toughen up one's hands was a requirement, carrying clay pots full of wet sand to build one's grip & strength, kumite was without pads & mostly full contact resulting in serious injurys & sometimes death, also Gichin Funakoshi never taught more then 15 forms, he was famous for saying that 15 forms was enough exercise for a lifetime.

Now my opinion of mordern shotokan aside, allot the issues seen in modernizing karate. Funakoshi became against sparring due to the amount of injuries recieved. Pads are a requirement for insurance but you can get away with not having them based solely liability. Meaning if someone signs an "acceptance of risk form" & they hit someone too hard during sparring then its thier fault, especially if you've instructed them to go at "half-power." In thoery this means you sue the person who broke your nose & not the dojo because 1) you knew the risks & 2) someone else disobeied the rules to harm you.

Now is modern karate watered down, OHY! 20 to 30 forms to shodan in some organizations. I don't care about the sport karate people too much, you know where they stand & it bothers me that someday like boxing, greco-roman, western boxing & muay thai people will forget karate's true intent. Karate-Do is melding of a fighting art & philosophy to build both mind & body.

But as far as old school goes. Old school karateka are more then fighters, sports men or philosophy majors. True karate is about teaching, sometimes you teach others by your own example, sometimes by words & when all else fails sometimes by force.

Now do pads, excess forms, lack of philosophy, a sports focus and/or loser requirements make karate water down? No, but forgeting what karate is does make it watered down. The moment you forget to strengthen both the minds, bodies & wills of your students or the moment you don't teach them why they are learning to fight, you water down any martial art. Karate just happens to have taken the most hits on this one.

[Mr. Mike]

Very well put.