Traditional Versus Modern

[jperk1966]

The World Martial Arts Union is starting a tournament circuit in 2006 which will return to the old school type rules. We are doing a 10 tournament circuit with our Nationals at the end of the year. Our tournament will be traditional. Black Belts will be allowed to use groin kicks and only clean contact will be scored as a point. Gi grabs and controlled take downs will be allowed in Black Belt divisions as well. We will also have a grappling division too.

[shogeri]

That's at least a start in the right direction!

[Charlie]

From what I understand Kyokushin, Ashihara, and Enshin Karate tournaments are full contact/ full force and the black belt divisions don't use pads. Does anyone know of other styles/organizations that promote "knockdown" tournaments where competitors don't have to "pull their punches?"

[IronWarrior]

I agree with this topic 100%! I started karate in 82' when I was 5 and as kids we did'nt even wear any pads , of course we did'nt make contact to the face, and if we did use pads it was those clothe ones that covered your shin and just your instep..lol old school... and the hand pads were also the same material, not the flashy colourful foam dipped ones of today and all are uniforms were either mostly white or black not neon pink and purple with glitter..lol

[Dragn]

The more I learn about the way things are going in the west, with these so called "karaadee" schools(Mc dojos) I feel increasingly revolted.

I never really had a problem with the XMA that I saw on the discovery channel because I didn't think of it as Karate. More like a kind of performance art that evolved from Karate.

But it seems that this kind of ego related flash is more mainstream than real karate.

Is it really that bad over there?

[jperk1966]

It is probably even worse than you think. I have seen Black belts brawling outside the ring. It looked like WWF. Thank God there are those of us "Old Timers" that want real Karate and Martial Arts brought back. True Martial Arts is about humility and respect and ego's and flash have no room in real martial arts!

[angus88]

We fight like we train, so we should train to fight.

We should train with intent. That is, with constant follow through that annihilates the opponent, employing the different methods of complete Martial Art training.

I share your passion, but training is training. You can't train with people and "annihilate" your training partner every time you're going through a drill. I may be misunderstanding you, but everyone pulls their punches to an extent when they're training - you have to. Otherwise I guess your students must frequently miss class for months at a time waiting for their bones to heal.

Nothing wrong with full contact, even in the old school sense of the word, but I'd love to see the dojo that goes full force kicking to someone's knee joint or literally breaking someone's wrist in a wrist lock every time it's demonstrated. Because if you aren't doing these things, you're pulling your punches. But that's necessary to training as well - without control you're not learning karate.

But I like the phrase "fight like you train". If you practice like you mean it, when you have to put it to actual use, you're less likely to hesitate. And if you practice your techniques hard, your fighting will relect that.

[Jussi Häkkinen]

True Martial Arts is about humility and respect

True martial arts are about killing or otherwisely winning your opponent in a physical confrontation. Philosophies etc. are pretty much unessential in this.

However, it is generally easier to deal with society if one does have a suitable amount of humility and respect.

[Dragn]

True martial arts are about killing or otherwisely winning your opponent in a physical confrontation. Philosophies etc. are pretty much unessential in this.

So you think its Ok to teach people how to kill each other without teaching them the necessary disipline to control their mind and emotions.

Sounds like a recipe for disaster.

With great power comes great responsibility. Good MA teachers have all understood this and have placed great importance on the training of the inner self. To ignore this aspect of your training is to risk becoming an egotistical thug.

Thats not the true MA as I have always been taught.

[Shorin Ryuu]

Actually, Jussi Häkkinen is correct. Old school karate practitioners (and before it was called karate) didn't focus on specific character development using their karate. Their more Confucian, Chinese outlook made it less of the Zen Buddhist/Japanese "forging of the spirit" type budo that you find in Japanese arts.

Of course they thought character and self-control was important. There is a famous Okinawan poem that went along the lines of:

"No matter how you may excel in the art of teand in your scholastic endeavors,nothing is more important than your behavior and your humanity as observed in daily life."

(Teijunsoku Nago Oyakata 1663)

But character was a part of their entire life, not something developed through a single "art" like karate. Many teachers in the old days didn't even accept students unless they were thought to have good character in the first place.

Because of this, karate was at first not accepted by the Japanese when it was introduced their in large part during the 1920s and 1930s because they had the same reaction you did. They thought it was not a "true" martial art because it didn't have a standardized curriculum, there wasn't a standardized uniform, they didn't have this overt emphasis on meditation and spiritual development, etc.

Okinawans didn't need karate to be "good people". They tried to have that "goodness" present in all aspects of their lives, not just the product of spiritual training the likes of which you are citing as true and "old school". If you look at the types of people who studied karate even back in the old days before it was "public", it consisted of nobility, royal bodyguards, constables, etc. In other words, people who stood up for the accepted Confucian social order and was used to quell any such disruptions in the natural order of things.

That's the true history of karate.