New Direction at our club - clash of interests

[jion]

Lately our Shotokan club has gone through a bit of a revolution. We're more and more becoming a 'karate-jutsu' club, where our kata and its bunkai are the blueprints to kumite. We're moving away from the JKA-like bunkai and sparring and more to a realistic approach to fighting. (It's very weird gonig to seminars these days hehe). There are a few people driving in this direction, with the bulk of the classes just going along with whatever.

I guess the final straw that broke the camel's back was a Patrick McCarthy seminar a few weeks ago. If you've never heard of him, his seminar was about bringing the fight back to the kata, more realistic and destructive techniques all taken out of our standard katas.

Unfortunately, there are some important people in our club (instructors and members of the board) that say all these changes simply wrong. A special oi-tsuki will end a fight immediately 99% of the time, and you need to train a lifetime to achieve this.

My opinion is, there's room for both the sporting karate and the traditional fighting jutsu part of karate. However, the other parties don't agree, it's coming to more and more of a deadlock. I actualyl think point-sparring is a superb form of exercise, it's just deadly if you think it's self-defense. (which the other party is claiming, basically)

So my question to you guys is, without breaking the club up, how can you resolve personality problems and issues like these? I gotta add, there's no time or space for another class, and I guess I'm part of the driving force that wants more realism and grappling (after all it's part of karate). Sometimes it's like talking to a wall.

Any suggestions?

[Zaine]

Well...approach the teacher about it. There is room for sport and realistic karate. But the realistic needs to come first. You could try talking the teacher into doing a sport karate class and traditional class. But other than that you got two options, either go with it, or find another school to learn in.

[kivikala]

Lately our Shotokan club has gone through a bit of a revolution. We're more and more becoming a 'karate-jutsu' club

...

So my question to you guys is, without breaking the club up, how can you resolve personality problems and issues like these?

Any suggestions?

You are facing 2 issues. One is ideology about the style. The other is individual egos. The ideology part is in my mind something you either accept or leave. Right or wrong, it sounds like there is a movement there and your club and associated groups have enough different mind-views to effect a radical change. If you do not fit that group you are in the wrong club.

The personalities and their egos drive this and if they are resistive to moderation and rational discussion then they have lost the way and are caught up in the movement. Arguing probably will not solve anything and only create emnity. Your post sounds like you need gather your strength and either ride the storm or seek safer harbors. It is all up to you and what you value most. Life is too short to play silly games in this area.

[angus88]

In my experience, this is something that just happens when a club gets to a certain size. Unless you've got one guy, and only one guy, that's totally in charge and can approve a change in philosophy or nix it on the spot - you're subject to cliques and their whims - be they good or bad.

Once the changes are in place, I say give it a few months - if after that you hate it, in most cities there's a dojo on every corner. There's bound to be one you like.

[24fightingchickens]

you need to train a lifetime to achieve this.

The funny thing about something you need to train a lifetime to achieve is that by definition you die immediately after doing it. That sort of begs the question why anyone would do it in the first place.

I understand why this sort of thing happens. The concept at work here is All or Nothing Thinking. It has to be 100% one way or 100% the other.

Why not find a compromise in the middle? Why can everyone not simply do their own idea of karate, and the club rotate around the type of training provided?

Share.

[jion]

thanks for the advice guys! Sorry I haven't replied sooner, I was out of town for a few days.

The ideology part is in my mind something you either accept or leave. Right or wrong

I reckon this is the core of the issue. Although there are a few instructors revved up about this new direction in a positive way, some instructors want to continue to believe in the one-punch-one-kill method.

Since it's starting to split the club into two fractions (something I want to avoid at all costs), the best thing to do is wait for a bit. Maybe the "tradionalists" will catch onto the new trend.

But I bet there are others clubs there are going through the same thing as we are. At the McCarthy I talked to another club that was turning more realistic as well. Unfortunately, getting anything out of those guys was like pulling each word out of their mouths hehe.

[Gen_Tora]

I'm gonna ask this & don't take it the wrong way. What rank is your sensei? How much does he truely know about his art form?

Reason being I have a very bad opinion of most Shotokan schools, for this very reason. There are allot of "hidden" movements in Kata, mose in the basic application of techniques.

A simple Judan Uke holds two possiblities. For one you strike the opponents arm with your forearm, then grab the wrist to pull the opponent forward into a reverse punch or after blocking & grabbing the opponents wrist & wedging your other forarm into the opponents armpit & stepping forward wedging their trapped arm between both bodies you can dislocate the shoulder. All of this is based on basic katas learned at a beginning level.

So I say break down the possiblities in your kata, then point out that the more realistic stuff was always there but instead of it being up to the constant practice of the student to learn the "secrets of kata" the modernest are openly teaching what was already their.

That way the traditionalist save face, & the modernest can accept more traditional training methods but keep to their opinion. A happy medium, hopefully...

Peace,

Ron

Edited December 2, 2005 by Gen_Tora

[P.A.L]

Jion, i know you been in this art for a long time that makes you a teacher of art,so i wouldn't advise you to go and talk to your sensei. for me i 've been in same situation with darrel crage sensei, i simply left although he is a great man and martial artist. now a days i practice with a younger sensei in a more aggresive art(white crane karate) and feel happy although i gotta tell you I've sustained more injuries as well. i was with Darrel Crag for a year and i even started with a sever injury but i had no problem,it was a light work out all the times,in a sense it was perfect for me at the time, i guess i need to go back after some years. i think you should keep pulling them to your side it's better for them at the end. a shin kick to the leg may wake them up too, it happend to a friend of mine, a third dan shito-ryu and first dan Shotokan never had recieved a shin kick before. when he did ,it changed his view.

[AikiGuy]

I think it is always a good idea to try new ways of approaching a fight. Students will like and benefit from the variety. Whether they mention it or not, they ask themselves if their class lessons really work on the street. So if you can show them alternate defenses to the same attack, you appear more versatile and credible.

I am a student and a teacher and I always enjoy when my sensei comes to class and says he found a book or tape from another style with a viable alternative to some of our teachings. It shows he does not have his blinders on when he teaches. As for the splitting into factions, I think incorporating the new approaches could be an optional item as students gain seniority. That way, the ones who like the old stuff aren't having anything new shoved down their throats. But the ones who want to diversify can do so.

We do this at our dojo with sparring. We do traditional touch/point sparring as a requirement for all ranks. But as students become advanced, they are allowed to do contact sparring if they choose. It is not required for kyu grades at all so there is no penalty for not participating. If a school does do this, I personally think it is better to start with the traditional, less aggressive stuff first. In my experience, beginners are often not ready for "the real thing", nor do they want it early on.

Another option is to make two groups. I know you said there is no such option. But I hope you mean to say it would be difficult to work in another session, but not impossible. Students could do one or both apporaches. If there is any chance to make two groups, I think it would open the school up to the best of both worlds without excluding anyone. Even if it is not possible now, the promise of expanding in the near future (when instructors' schedules clear up or whatever) would keep some people around who would otherwise give up on the whole place and go to another school.

Good luck

[Hobbes]

The "paint my numbers" approach to karate is unfortunate. Kata satisfies many needs of the past and of today. In the old days how did you record information? You either wrote it down or you had an oral tradition of story telling. I find people like the simple answer and when it comes to kata, they have a hard time accepting what kata does. They are too quick to dismiss kata as being useless. When kata is practiced well, it serves as an excellent foundation to everything else. Kata is a living record of karate or any other system. There is nothing hidden in karate kata as most would like to think, there is no deception or secrets. Kata trains the body and mind and suggests strategies and methods of attack and defense. The possibilities are endless. The reason that kata works so well is that techniques are transitory and its effectiveness lays in the transition, which may not be obvious. I can see how to someone who thinks of technigues as snapshots of kata can miss what's in-between.

When we speak, have we not had the experience that what was said *literally, was not the actual meaning. It was how it was said, and the context that gave use the actual meaning. This is also true of karate. Practicing out of context causes so many problems. Practicing "by the numbers" takes the "ART" out of martial arts. Having said that, I don't mean to insinuate that one can do what ever they want. Biomechanics, context, strategy, tactics all influence technigue (amounst others). To focus only one one aspect limits you. What gets lost along the way is the intended context, so we subsitute our own so that we can continue practice. I've only touched the surface of the value of kata, but keep in mind that its a much more complex animal than it first appears.