Yokogeri Keage

[saiha]

Different thing. Side stretching (yokogeri no undo) is done by swinging the leg, but yokogeri keage is a side snap kick (well, that's the common translation for the name). It can be found in a couple of older kata as well. Common bunkai is a low sweep sideways or a groin kick under the attacking leg after a lateral parry/foot catch.

my apologies, i guess that the name applies to different techniques in shotokan and kyokushin, and what we call yokogeri ke age is your yoko geri no undo. as a point of interest, would you be able to describe the difference between yoko geri and yoko geri ke age (in shotokan)

[Tommy_P]

Different thing. Side stretching (yokogeri no undo) is done by swinging the leg, but yokogeri keage is a side snap kick (well, that's the common translation for the name). It can be found in a couple of older kata as well. Common bunkai is a low sweep sideways or a groin kick under the attacking leg after a lateral parry/foot catch.

my apologies, i guess that the name applies to different techniques in shotokan and kyokushin, and what we call yokogeri ke age is your yoko geri no undo. as a point of interest, would you be able to describe the difference between yoko geri and yoko geri ke age (in shotokan)

Hi saiha,

I am a Shotokan practitioner but have also spent a couple of years in Kyokushin and still do once and awhile. The word "age" means rising as in Jodan Age Uke for example (upper level rising block). When we speak of any technique that rises in it's trajectory we use the term age. That could be for exercise or techniques, doesn't matter since all it means is rising. Ke, placed in front of age makes the word keage. The "ke" comes from keru (to kick) or keri (kick; noun). So when we say rising side kick we only need to say "yoko keage". The word "geri" is not necessary since "ke" is already in there describing kick. Yoko keage=side rising kick.

In Kyokushin we used a straight leg from beginning to end, swinging the leg for height as a stretching exercise. We also performed this to the front keeping the foot formed for a mae geri (front kick), with the ball of the foot, leg straight throughout...a common stretch. I believe in Kyokushin we called regular side kicks yoko geri and didn't differentiate between snap or thrust, maybe it was just my dojo.

In Shotokan we have Yoko kekomi (side thrust kick) where the kicking leg is chambered and the leg is thrust straight to the side using the hip to thrust the foot/leg in a straight line with the knee following the foot, much like a fist leads the elbow in a straight punch.

In our yoko keage (side rising kick) The kicking leg is chambered but the knee may point 45 degrees toward the target with the foot chambered at the support leg knee. This time, as in snapping as opposed to thrusting techniques, the knee leads the way and the foot follows. So the foot is swung upward from the knee in an arcing motion and the hip isn't used in the manner of a thrust kick. A dramatic pivot isn't needed of the support foot either. The foot is bladed and is snapped out and back hinging off the knee.

I personally don't use it and opt for the thrust kick instead (yoko kekomi). It's the cause of some debate in Shotokan over the usefulness of this kick. It's used against low targets or the ribs while evading a punch or holding your opponents attacking arm outstretched to the side while you kick up under it, or under the armpit etc.

Names can be confusing as they never truly describe a technique thus the many variations. For you yoko geri keage describes a leg movement (kick) that rises to the side and it's an exercise. For Shotokan it describes a kick to the side that is arcing upward or "rising" both correct terminology I guess but kind of describing different things. This is the problem with only knowing "jargon" or small portions or "words" of a language. In Jussi's case he has a better description as far as terminology goes concerning the exercise version. Yokogeri no undo.

Roughly, exercise of side kick or side kick exercise or training. Yokogeri (side kick) no (of) undo (exercise or training).

Tommy

[Doug]

i think tommy p has cleared that right up for us all,

i find the side snap kick very effective in multiple opponent training, as the pivoting form a natural front stance in kumite seems unneccessary when you can just do front kick. But when your opponent is to your side i find it easy to lift either the front or back leg to kick to either side or the back as in heian sandan and kanku dai (followed by elbows).

Also very handy to snap to knock someones guard down (or up under their chin) and follow up with another technique, tudan/gedan kekomi or punch combo

just my 2 cents

[Charlie]

One of the other members of this forum, named "Feels," posted a link to a video of clips from what appear to be Kyokushin tournaments and sparring sessions. I couldn't find the thread that contained her post to give the link here, but in the clip, it shows someone being knocked-out by what looks like a yoko geri. Also, another scene shows someone being knocked across the dojo by what looks like a yoko geri.

I've tried using yoko geri in our full-contact kumite at my dojo because it seems to me that since we don't use it that much, then my opponents would be thus unsure of how to defend against it. I've found this to be true but my yoko geri haven't had much effect because it's hard to put as much force into them as can be put into a mai geri, mawashi geri, or senkaku geri. Usually, my yoko geri will "tap" their chest with no apparent effect. They'll then swat it away if I haven't lowered it already and proceed with their counter-attack.

Perhaps if one can catch someone "coming in" with a yoko geri to their chin it might drop them, like the person in the clip I mention above appeared to do.

[Tommy_P]

A side kick can be a good weapon but timing is crucial as well as "distancing". If your kick is landing while it's too far extended it will lack oomph, too close and it's jammed. Balance is important and if you're kicking too high (possibly the chest) that may weaken the kick and effect distancing (or perceived distance). Without being in front of you and seeing what you're doing the best advice I can give is practice, practice, practice on a heavy bag and kicking shield. The bag shouldn't swing, that would be a push. If it's a water bag or a softer type heavy bag it should fold. If it's a good hard bag folding it is near impossible but it should dent with the feeling of wanting to fold. Properly punched or kicked it doesn't swing it "pops" by the chain.

Tommy

[feels]

I really need to change my avatar. A lot of people are confusing me for a girl. The person in my avatar is actually Amuro Namie, a famous Japanese singer.

Just to clear up the confusion in this thread:

Yoko geri is a side snap kick.

Mae geri is a front snap kick.

Yoko keage is a straight-legged kick to the side.

Mae keage is a straight-legged kick to the front.

Personally, I don't use mae keage or yoko keage in kumite, but I do use uchi mawashi geri, soto mawashi geri, and kakato geri which are all straight-legged. Mae geri and yoko geri are very efficient kicks as well; and they can reach the chin much better than mae keage and yoko keage..

[Tommy_P]

Just to clear up the confusion in this thread:

Yoko geri is a side snap kick.

Mae geri is a front snap kick.

Yoko keage is a straight-legged kick to the side.

Mae keage is a straight-legged kick to the front.

Those are only descriptions according to a particular style. Each style uses the same labels for different things pertaining to similar techniques (see my Japanese descriptions in a post above).

This is common for many techniques. Another one that comes immediately to mind is Kizami Zuki. This is how we say "Jab" in Shotokan. Others use Jun Zuki. Still others use Jun Zuki instead of Oi Zuki when describing lunge punch. And I believe a lunge punch may actually be correctly termed Oi Jun Zuki (Jussi?).

Different systems use there terminology differently. As I explained in my post above, the techniques didn't come with names. Names were applied afterward, many many years afterward. The names are meaningless in the grand scheme of things. I would guess that they came about after 1908 or after Itosu revamped the kata and developed the Pinan's. I believe he applied names or "labels" to techniques, calling them by names describing blocks, kicks and punches when in actuality what we call a block may not have been a block at all. The same for kicks and punches. Before the labels (names) maybe the technique wasn't a kick, maybe the punch we see in a kata wasn't ever a punch at all.

So a Yoko geri keage (or yoko keage) may be a straight leg kick with the blade of the foot in one school and a rising kick to the side using the toes in another. Both correct.

Tommy

[24fightingchickens]

This is one of the many reasons I stick to English in my karate. The supposedly helpful Japanese jargon that anyone from any country can understand is more confusing than simply watching what the guy next to you is doing. What a waste of time!

[feels]

If people wanted to to talk abut Kyokushin in this thread, then they would have a reference.

[Tommy_P]

If people wanted to to talk abut Kyokushin in this thread, then they would have a reference.

Yes, that is a good reference to Kyokushin terminology. I was addressing the original question which referred to Shotokan's yoko geri keage and then saiha's post stating that yoko geri keage wasn't actually a kick but a stretch.

I was attempting to make clear the differences between schools and terminology

Tommy