Kung Fu Grappling

[Traditional-Fist]

Hello everyone;

I first want to say that I am putting this in the "General Martial Arts" section instead of the "Chinese Martial Arts" section because I would like resonses from both Kung Fu practitioners, grapplers and anyone else who can offer insight.

Here is a little back story before my question.

A couple of years ago I accompanied a friend to a Kung Fu school in a nearby town. The instructor there was talking about the superiority of Kung Fu, and that the style encompases all aspects of fighting, including ranged fighting, close in fighting, weapons and ground fighting.

I did not care for the instructor's attitude towards other martial arts, because he seemed to show a general disrespect to seemingly all other forms, and spoke of how after he and a friend or brother learned a little kung fu, he and his friend/brother would go to other martial arts schools and beat up on the instructors there, I certainly didn't believe him, and and I certainly lost my respect for him, not for Kung Fu, just the instructor.

What I am curious about is the ground fighting style taught in Kung Fu, if any. The instructor at this school stated that students of his style (not [/i]his style) of Kung Fu can/will enter all forms of competition, including grappling. I am questioning the reliability of the instructor due to his apparent low opinion and lack of respect towards other styles.

 

I cannot recall which form of Kung Fu it was, but for any of you knowledgeable in various forms of Kung Fu, could you tell me how accurate this person's statements were, and what styles teach it? And for those of you who enter in grappling competitions, could you please tell me if you have gone up against a Kung Fu based grappler, and how well they fought?

 

Thank you in advance.

 

Ground fighting DOES exist in kung fu that is a fact. Another fact is that chin-na techniques ARE applicable to ground fighting. That of course depends on the depth of one's knowledge as well as style and school/instructor.

 

I practise a lineage of Wing Chun (mainland China) that teaches grappling based on Wing Chun's own theories and concepts i.e. Wing Chun grappling. Many people do not know that it exists and some of them, when told that it exists seem to go into some kind of denial. But it does exist and it is taught at the later stages of Chium Kiu level. I had to move before I got to the advanced stages of Chum Kiu and my current instructor does not teach it. However I did see advanced students practising it in my first school. Ground fighting also exists in Northern Praying Mantis and I suspect in a few other major Shaolin styles.

 

The sol object, at least in the Wing Chun grappling, is not to make the opponent tap out, eventhough that is also one possibility by using chin-na techniques to immobilise him. Alternatively the WC fighter will defend himself and use telling ground strikes to finish his opponent, and by this I don't mean mounting his opponent and trying to connect with his covered face for half an hour, I mean one or two well aimed strikes. For those to work other aspects of kung fu training have to be present i.e. (real) iron palm, etc.

[kzshin]

There is also Shiao Chiao.

There are actaully several grappling technics in Kung Fu, the problem is most of them (almost all) are not famous in US, but that doesn't mean they didn't exist. Even Chin-na, most people only know there is Chin-na in US, but not many people knows there are actually Da (big) Chin-na, and Shiao (little) Chin-na.

[shogeri]

Shuai Jiao was mentioned previously, and is the basis for many Chin Na principles.

I suppose if a Kung Fu practitioner (or Karateka) mixed that (Shuai Jiao) with roman greco wrestling, and applied a wide variety of submission techniques, then they would have all they need as a Martial Artist.

They would then have:

Striking (Arms {hands, elbows, forearms} and Legs {shins, knees, feet})

Grappling (Standing and Ground) - joint locking, throws, strike-downs, down fighting, submission holds, etc.

[ovine king]

there is a fundemental reason why ground-fighting in the form of the gpalling arts usually seen outside of china is hardly seen in the chinese arts but this takes some explaining.

ever since Confucius's ways of teaching were adopted and taken as the model of chinese (let's call it) nobility, certain ideals were taken both metaphorically and literally.

One of these things, was that man should be able to hold his head high, to stand "with you head holding up the sky and your feet firmly on the ground" (translated from chinese phrase). As a result, all of the "high-arts" (for example have a look at the correct approach to chinese caligraphy) have an emphasis on being standing on two feet and also goes in part to explaining why the only proper ground fighting style has the given common "name" of "dog boxing".

Anything that required you to roll around the floor was deemed to be of the common and low class people (which again points to the chinese snobbery against the minority chinese of the period)

As for the earlier comment of chin-na being applicable on the ground.

on a very BASIC level this is true.

the problem arises when you go into the techniques in a more detailed fashion and start to see where it is you are affecting (and effecting) when you apply a technique. As ultimately the lock/siezure is working on a joint, the lock/siezure works on a structure that is assumed to be standing on its two feet (which lines up the body in a certain way).

When that body is not on it's feet, the muscles/joints are no longer working in a certain way (i.e you can twist more and be twisted more and differently becuse you are no longer on your feet and thus your hip isn't that fixed).

Granted that there are a few types of locks that can be applied on the floor, getting into them from a position of the floor isn't natural (becaue tehy rely on an opponent who is moving and extending) and because of the displacement of the hip structure, isn't as stable anymore (those here that actually know chin-na will know what I mean).

The point is, chin-na, on all levels was never designed to be used when not on your feet against someone who also isn't on their feet. Some of it works but then again, you can do pratice forms in freefall from 10,000 feet but that doesn't mean much.

Remember that the topic in question, is GRAPPLING not ground fighting and the simple FACT is, grappling does not exist in the common chinese styles and it is nowhere as advanced as it is in the japanese derived arts. The chinese never took it upon themselves to persue something that involved rolling around the ground because it was against their basic cultural ideals. Again, if you look to how some styles are described, the ones that do have movements on the gound are often described as "perverse" (in the traditional meaning of the word).

For the record, I was taught grappling (as in chin-na) and how to flow from into and from these things to further the striking process or to take down or to breaking something and I'd like to think that after nearing 15/16 years of this, I know more than a thing or two about the chinese arts and their development.

I'd love to ask you for more detail about your wing chun training but i gather that on these forums, such questioning isn't always appreciated. In any case, you have stated that you've only ever seen it; as in, you don't actually know what it is that they were doing so me asking for more detail probably wouldn't get me much.

[shogeri]

Ovine,

That sounds about as close to historically correct as it comes.

I know this, having studies asian history and philosophy and culture through my university days, and for some time thereafter as well.

[elbows_and_knees]

There is also Shiao Chiao.

There are actaully several grappling technics in Kung Fu, the problem is most of them (almost all) are not famous in US, but that doesn't mean they didn't exist. Even Chin-na, most people only know there is Chin-na in US, but not many people knows there are actually Da (big) Chin-na, and Shiao (little) Chin-na.

I already mentioned shuai chiao... there is no ground grappling in it.

[elbows_and_knees]

Ground fighting DOES exist in kung fu that is a fact. Another fact is that chin-na techniques ARE applicable to ground fighting. That of course depends on the depth of one's knowledge as well as style and school/instructor.

they CAN be applied, but many of the techniques can NOT be directly applied. This is obviously because of the different dimensions involved between standing and being on the ground. The techniques need to be modified in order for them to work, as that's not what they were intended for. Fighting on the ground goes against CMA mentality.

I practise a lineage of Wing Chun (mainland China) that teaches grappling based on Wing Chun's own theories and concepts i.e. Wing Chun grappling. Many people do not know that it exists and some of them, when told that it exists seem to go into some kind of denial. But it does exist and it is taught at the later stages of Chium Kiu level. I had to move before I got to the advanced stages of Chum Kiu and my current instructor does not teach it. However I did see advanced students practising it in my first school. Ground fighting also exists in Northern Praying Mantis and I suspect in a few other major Shaolin styles.

ground grappling in mantis is not from mantis. There may be some schools who have integrated it today (which is great), but it is not indigenous to mantis. This goes against their mentality as well. I know several that will dispute it's original existence in WC as well. It was incorporated later. the fact that a few schools do it does not make it a part of the system. It just means that those few schools took the time to look into applying their art to the ground... Notice you said ground fighting, however. This would imply striking and is different from grappling on the ground. this topic is about ground grappling in kung fu...

The sol object, at least in the Wing Chun grappling, is not to make the opponent tap out, eventhough that is also one possibility by using chin-na techniques to immobilise him. Alternatively the WC fighter will defend himself and use telling ground strikes to finish his opponent, and by this I don't mean mounting his opponent and trying to connect with his covered face for half an hour, I mean one or two well aimed strikes. For those to work other aspects of kung fu training have to be present i.e. (real) iron palm, etc.

you have just stated the very purpose for using bjj on the street. You have also stated what we have been saying - most kung fu ground work is striking based. ALL kung fu styles likely have that in some form. That, however, is not ground grappling.

Ground grappling in the street is NOT for making people "tap out". I'm sure you realize that it takes much more time to tap someone out than it does to break his limb, choke him out, etc. Why? pressure. If we are in a competition, I will apply pressure slowly and with control, so you have a chance to tap before I hurt you. In the street, this is not the case. At the club I bounce at, I have choke people out - takes about three to five seconds. In competition you don't actually want to choke the person, so you do it slower.

EDIT: I just read ovine's post and noticed he explained the mentality I mentioned. He also mentioned the different dimensions between grappling standing and on the ground.

[shogeri]

Advanced Jiujutsu practitioners do go to the ground.

Rather many techniques are built around submission (that is locking or trapping up to and including a break in the structure of the body) holds.

BJJ is just that.

If effective striking (close in hand to hand combat) is not taught along with it {BJJ}, nor standing grappling (throws, strike-downs, etc), then the theory of multiple opponents will not hold.

Ground fighting, including grappling, is just part of the picture in regards to MA. It should not pitted against the striking arts, or vice versa.

I would love to see what the standard syllabus is for BJJ.

This way, we could see just what carries over into other systems within CMA.

[GTF]

there is certainly some grappling in hung-gar mostly stand up joint locks but also some take downs and some stuff on ground fighting but i havent been training for long so i am not exactly an expert on the subject.

[kzshin]

I already mentioned shuai chiao... there is no ground grappling in it.

Well, the topic is kung fu grappling, it didn't say anything about ground.