Ki/hara in jewish texts

[Why_Worry]

I'm not really sure were to put this so i just put general martial arts. BUt anyway, i'm sure alot of people have heard the arguement that believing in ki is against beleiving in g-d, or an arguement clsoe enough to that. Last night i was at karate class and my senseis were on vacation so one of the black belts taught class. The man who taught class was a rabbi too and he said that in the jewish text the Kabbalah (i'm not really sure how to spell it), it says that your center of power is in yoru stomach or the area where your hara is. I just thought that was interesting that even in some religous texts it says that you have a hara or center of ki, just uses different words for it (or in this case hebrew for it). Just sharing that thought as i thought it was really cool and helped me believe in ki more as now i know that i can believe in g-d and ki at the same time and there is nothing wrong with it at all. The only difference is that i'm using a different language to say center of ki

[shogeri]

Religion and Martial Art, in many cases do not mix. Not sure why. But they don't.

As a Christian Minister and lifelong Martial Artist understand what you are saying, and where you are coming from.

Hope you are enjoying KarateForums. It is a great place to share ideas regarding learning about Martial Arts, and the journey along the way.

[Why_Worry]

Thanks. even though i'm not christian, its still nice to hear a religous person such as yourself saying that martial arts dont contradict religion becuase i have always wondered that as a lot of ideas come from other things liek zen or yin and yang, and i've always wondered, but it seems a bit clearer now that there is nothing wrong with it all.

[Aodhan]

I'm not really sure were to put this so i just put general martial arts. BUt anyway, i'm sure alot of people have heard the arguement that believing in ki is against beleiving in g-d, or an arguement clsoe enough to that. Last night i was at karate class and my senseis were on vacation so one of the black belts taught class. The man who taught class was a rabbi too and he said that in the jewish text the Kabbalah (i'm not really sure how to spell it), it says that your center of power is in yoru stomach or the area where your hara is. I just thought that was interesting that even in some religous texts it says that you have a hara or center of ki, just uses different words for it (or in this case hebrew for it). Just sharing that thought as i thought it was really cool and helped me believe in ki more as now i know that i can believe in g-d and ki at the same time and there is nothing wrong with it at all. The only difference is that i'm using a different language to say center of ki

I've heard the argument that to believe in chi/ki (However your style spells it) is to not believe in a supreme deity. I don't buy it, for this reason. As I understand it, chi is your inner life force, that you can get in touch with, manipulate, etc. To me that suggests a soul as well. I don't want to delve into the religious aspects of it, but I've never seen how getting in better touch with yourself is to disbelieve in a deity.

Aodhan

[abacus]

me, i believe that there is a Creator and a Life Force, and they intermix. I believe that the Creator created everything by minipulating proteins and the such with chi. i also that there is a center of life in the universe, which my "religion"(I made it from my varius beliefs, so im not sure if it really can be considdered a religion.)calls "the life tree" and as said, it is represented by a tree.

[nanfeishen]

Unfortunately, this confusion often exists within many people with regards to the martial arts and religion, in regards to "the spirit" of martial arts.

The definitions are unfortunately very close and often get mixed.

Religion:The belief in a superhuman controlling power, in a personal god or gods entitled to obedience and worship, A THING THAT ONE IS DEVOTED TO.

Religious: Devoted to religion, or concerned with religion, devout, churchgoing, pious, God-fearing , holy , SPIRITUAL.

Spiritual: of, or concerned with the spirit as opposed to matter, concerned with sacred or religious things; holy;divine (2) (OF THE MIND) refined , sensitive, not concerned with the material.

Spirit: the vital essence of a person or animal, the soul, (2) A PREVAILING MENTAL OR MORAL CONDITION OR ATTITUDE.

Words linked to spirit: breath; life; vitality; soul; attitude; principle; thought; morale; character; temperament; nature; heart; mind; will; bravery; courage; resolve; enthusiasm; motivation; pasion; meaning; marrow;

the list goes on and on.

All the words i listed can be used to describe the qualities of both faith and of martial arts and qi energy, the closeness is uncanny, the fact that both have the same qualities, means (in my eyes) that they can co-exist in complete harmony with one and other , Yin and Yang, Heaven and Earth.

The "spirit" of martial arts is to do with the building of the character of the practitioner, through personal effort and struggle, what you choose to believe faith wise is and will always be your choice.

ps: The definition and words taken from the : Readers Digest Oxford Complete Wordfinder, 1990, isbn 0 276 42101 9

[Ottman]

I haven't heard (first hand) many people having a problem with martial arts training conflicting with religion. The few people I have heard preaching that MA's conflict with religion were priests or other religious officials, and never individual memebers of a congregation. Due to this experience, I chalk up the anti-MA 'philosophy' to these officials trying to make sure that their congregations don't abandon the church and substitute it with other spiritual disciplines which the MA's certainly offer. This tells me that these officials are totally misinformed about MA's, as I've never heard of any individual abandoning their religion and/or church to substitute it with an MA. In fact most people I've spoken to about the subject have told me that studying an MA has only reinforced their faith and religion, as they now have a better understanding of themselves, and therefore are more comfortable with their religion and their relationship with their respective deity. I actually know someone who is studying to be a nuerologist, and they have participated in research projects that study the effect of meditation, prayer, and other forms of deeply spiritual contemplation on immune system health. This research compared the deep prayer of Christian monks, with the meditation of Bhuddists and Shoalin monks, and found them to have almost exactly the same effect. So any arguments over why the meditation or prayer is being done are, IMHO, mere semantics.

To be completely transparent, I am not religious at all, but I am very spiritual, and I encourage spirituality, regardless of which religion it takes a person to acheive spirituality. I think that if you can find emptiness and happiness, it matters not the path you took to get there, and these religions, and MA's for that matter, need to stop bickering over semantics, and start supporting one another a bit better, because the end all goals of all of these 'organizations' are extremely similar, if not exactly the same.

[ki master]

I definetly agree. Ki is just energy taken from different scorces of energy. It is like The plants absorb energy from the sun, so can we by the way. But if you get into chanting spells and controling what people do by rituals now that is the devil.

e-mail:

one_with_fire_rusioka@yahoo.com

 

[greenbelt_girl15]

[quote name="AodhanI've heard the argument that to believe in chi/ki (However your style spells it) is to not believe in a supreme deity. I don't buy it' date=' for this reason. As I understand it, chi is your inner life force, that you can get in touch with, manipulate, etc. To me that suggests a soul as well. I don't want to delve into the religious aspects of it, but I've never seen how getting in better touch with yourself is to disbelieve in a deity.

Aodhan[/quote]

I don't think that getting better in touch with yourself would cause you to disbelieve in a deity, but when becoming more enlightened becomes more important than the god that you worship that is when it starts interfering with you religion,because enlightening yourself has become a higher priority than your religion,thus becoming the thing you worship.

At first I had a hard time with the concept of chi, I was raised in a very shelterd christian home and really had no idea of what it was.So I began studying and eventually came to the conclusion that chi is real and that in itself is not a religion.However if it ever becomes more important than my relationship with Jesus Christ that I have to step beck and check my priorities.

But if you get into chanting spells and controling what people do by rituals now that is the devil

I would definatly agree with that Ki Master.Chi and demonic worship are tow WAY different things.But I think that those in chuches are so misinformed about chi, it's realy kinda sad. Even my own sister thinks that I shouldn't meditate.

I guess that's a choice everyone has to make on their own.