Kyokushin VS Kick Boxing, Shotokan or KungFu.

[elbows_and_knees]

well what I think out of this is that the media has a great deal with swaying peoples opinions on arts such as TKD In my honest opinion I think that its just that people dont like TKD at all, maybe its because of the different orginizations that TKD has but if it is they are relly missing out Even though it is true that no matter what federation you are looking at or study it is the fastest growing art out there.

Nah. The media LOVES tkd - that's part of the reason why it's the fastest growing art. the general public loves tkd as well. Its the MA community that tends to frown on it.

[elbows_and_knees]

not to be offensive or anything but this is a missconception often caused by bruce lee movies that all kung-fu is silly high flasy kicks just to look good but in actual fact the martial arts in the movies are wushu just being called kung-fu most of the kicks that we train are low usualy no higher than the stomach

you train in a southern style. southerners had to deal with softer ground, so they had to ensure proper footing. High kicks were out of the question for them. The ground is harder in the north, giving them the freedom to use higher kicks. These higher, flashier kicks are seen a lot in competitive wushu.

[GTF]

I've addressed this before, but will address it again here. most kung fu styles, AS A WHOLE, do NOT condition like the like of kyokushin, muay thai, bjj, wrestling, etc. Now, that is not to say that some schools of a particular style do not do so. But the fact that a handful of mantis schools (for example) are known for tough conditioning, that doesn't make the style as a whole known for it. kyokushin and thai boxing are KNOWN for their conditioning because 98% of all of their schools condition in this manner. with the exception of choy lay fut and shuai chiao, you probably won't find a lot of schools who can say that.

i cant speak for most styles but in hung-gar we do alot of foor arm conditioning because our blocks require it also there are things like iron shirt and iron head etc so wouldnt they count as conditioning.

[shogeri]

We did alot of conditioning in Okinawan Goju Ryu.

[elbows_and_knees]

i cant speak for most styles but in hung-gar we do alot of foor arm conditioning because our blocks require it also there are things like iron shirt and iron head etc so wouldnt they count as conditioning.

Actually, no, it wouldn't. That's not what he's speaking of. he's speaking of anaerobic and aerobic conditioning. Iron palm, iron shirt, golden bell, three star drills, etc. aren't much good in the ring if you don't have the conditioning to fight through all of the rounds. This is conditioning that most traditional schools don't do.

[Tommy_P]

There's body conditioning or conditioning of specific weapons such as knuckles and hands, elbows, shins, forearms etc. Then there is overall conditioning that comes from hard training in all areas. Putting your body through the paces, reaching it's limit (or percieved limit) and then pushing beyond.

It's kind of like playing foot ball (or wanting to) and conditioning the shoulders for tackling by hitting them with a stick or using tackle dummies. That covers one area but to truly be conditioned for the game you need to get out there and tackle and be tackled over and over for hours and days. "AND" you need to play the game.

Tommy

[Tommy_P]

I seem to hear this a lot, the idea that no one trains like Kyokushin.

I have been on both sides of the fence so I will give my thoughts and experience on the matter. I have spent many years training in Shotokan and have seen many things as well as changes. I have also, as a Shotokan black belt, trained for a couple of years at a Kyokushin dojo regularly about 7 or 8 years ago in between my Shotokan trainings. I still visit there once per month for some supplementary training.

When I first entered the Kyokushin dojo I immediately noticed the focus on spirit and hard training. Was it a surprise? Well, more of a welcome one since my Shotokan training was also very demanding when I was coming up. We regularly fought hard, were put through grueling training and conditioning as well as the endless techniques. Busted noses and ribs along with some lost teeth weren't uncommon back in the 60's and 70's. We wore the blood stains on our gi like badges of honor. Some things were different at the Kyokushin dojo obviously but I adapted fairly quickly. When it came time to spar I will admit that the leg kicks took some getting used to "but" at the same time they couldn't deal with my punching to the head and face since that's not allowed in Kyokushin. I stopped as per they're rules even though I still had to take and learn to defend the leg kicks. That takes away a weapon from me and adds one for him, unbalanced don't you think? Anyway we went on. As far as the contact I have to say that in no uncertain terms the kumite is fierce, but here again, other than the leg kicks it was the same as we practiced at our dojo. Same contact with the exception that we made light contact to the head and face in our Shotokan dojo and I was used to it, Kyokushin allowed not even "non contact" to the head/face. In the beginning until I got more used to the leg kicking, they would leg kick and I would sweep, kind of evened things out. The kumite was hard, yes, but that's what I was used to. I had trained this way for years and with no safety equipment. As a matter of fact when I started training those safety foot and hand pads weren't even around yet.

I found Kyokushin "different" not better or worse. The training methods were a little different but a lot was the same. I found we had a lot in common but have to say I also learned a lot. I like to practice with my partner using hard blocks, in Kyokushin I was encouraged to use a softer block. So things were sort of a trade off.

In Shotokan did we practice for point sparring? Sure, but that was in addition to our "regular" sparring. Our main sparring training was all out, same as I experienced in Kyokushin.

The difference and what took a little getting used to, like I said, was different techniques. Shotokan was more linear techniques and punches to the midsection and ribs. Kyokushin focused more on punching over the top to the chest and uppercutting the midsection. We both used knee kicks and as a matter of fact my first match I got off more than my Kyokushin opponent.

There are Shotokan schools I'm sure that focus only on point sparring but that hasn't been my experience. I'm not JKA but I do know that early JKA was a bloodbath and the JKA instructors course in Japan, from what I understand is still pure brutality.

Like I said, I still visit the Kyokushin dojo for my supplementary training and still kumite hard for a few rounds. Is the fighting hard and fierce/spirited? Yes, but that's what I prefer. Why? because that's how I was raised in my traditional Shotokan dojo. My feelings about Kyokushin? I love it and feel it's one of the best systems out there. It's no nonsense straight ahead strong karate. How do I feel about Shotokan, pretty much the same when trained right. I wish Shotokan had some Kyokushin traits and I wish Kyokushin had some Shotokan traits. They compliment each other IMO. I'm just a bit weary of people thinking they know the real Shotokan judging by tournaments. Tournament training and regular training are kept separate and are two different things ususlly both practiced in the same dojo.

This may be a sore spot for some but here is something to ponder.

There are many traditional Okinawan systems out there that are true Martial arts. They don't have any competition since what they practice is for real and can't be toned down for tournament. They don't line up and march up and down the floor punching, blocking and kicking. That's a Japanese thing. They take a defense practice it to it's end, which would be the incapacitation of the opponent and do that over and over. The technique they use is a piece of a kata. Then they do the next until they have the whole kata ready to be used for taking someone out. There is no ring and no judge, it's not target practice and it's not knockdown, it's practice only to take your opponent out permenantly.

If your system is in competition then training is geared toward that end. For Shotokan it's points for Kyokushin it's knockdown. Points has limited targets and knockdown doesn't allow face punching or joint attacks, throat etc. Therefore training is geared towards that or "toned down" at least somewhat.

If that's the case then what we're practicing is a "combat sport" rather than a true martial art. This is what it has evolved to in both cases. Kyokushin competition may be a bit more of a test of spirit and will than Shotokan but the fighting is still "in the ring" and training is geared toward that. Can it be used for self defense? Sure, just as Shotokan can although there are other methods more geared toward that end.

I have always thought that Shotokan practitioners could benifit from a little Kyokushin training, I have. It's an opportunity to see and experience some diferent fighting techniques and strategies, such as close distancing rather than mid to long range fighting distance. However Kyokushin can also benifit from a little of Shotokan's tai sabaki and swift closing of the gap. I like being on top of my opponent and keep moving forward so it suits me but then again that's how I learned my Shotokan. My Kyokushin training enhanced that and gave me a new insight, it could also work the other way around.

See the similarities, not the differences.

Tommy

[Meguro]

Well put Tommy. The problem with some people who post and compare different styles, particularly Shotokan and Kyokushin, is that they often know only about one style and make broad sweeping statements that reveal their ignorance about the other style. Your postss show that you are well grounded in both.

Would you decribe your Shotokan training to be typical of Shotokan or a more extreme version?

[Tommy_P]

Well put Tommy. The problem with some people who post and compare different styles, particularly Shotokan and Kyokushin, is that they often know only about one style and make broad sweeping statements that reveal their ignorance about the other style.

Sometimes perhaps but it's not always ignorance. Sometimes people go by their experiences and maybe their experiences have only exposed them to certain individuals and not representations of complete systems or training. Sometimes tournament competitors aren't the best people to use as templates for a style. We have many who like to fight in our organization and there are also many who "think' they do. They are competitors and their fighting is different, that's "their" goal. They're good at what "they' do.

Schools are varied and some have very different goals or beliefs.

Don't forget that sometimes what's being talked about may be intermediates and not advanced students in some cases on both sides.

Then again I've heard similar stories from the other camp and the results favored the story teller so there's always bias

I go by a simple rule. Believe half of what you see and none of what you hear

Would you decribe your Shotokan training to be typical of Shotokan or a more extreme version?

Typical from what I've experienced in my generation. People I associate with these days from all walks seem to be training my way or close to it also. Many are still doing kumite hard in regular training and when it comes time to compete, if that's what they're into, they practice that separately.

Are there dojo that play tag? Of course, but that doesn't represent Shotokan as a whole.

I'm sure many full contact fighters can claim never having a problem against a Shoto practitioner. I don't doubt it, and that's because it's not common for a Shotokan practitioner to enter those type of events so now you're playing the odds. Out of their element too I guess, it's natural. Again that's only a small portion of the Shotokan community and not representative.

If a Shotokan practitioner enters the full contact ring against a Kyokushin fighter he may be in for a surprise if he's ignorant to what they do. His mistake.

But that's the fighter not the style. Point and knockdown are two different things and not constantly training for a knockdown sporting event is not a style weakness, that's a school or particular training weakness.

There are a lot of things out there that you have to truly experience or study before making a sweeping statement.

Knowledge is a wonderful weapon.

Here is something I wrote concerning point sparring and full contact awhile back. It's the 9th post down the thread on page 1.

Click here

Tommy

[KF Dude]

Its Kyokushin rules.

Kung Fu guys tend to be very flashy but have no real striking power.

Tomo

Some but not all of us.