Well rounded vs. "mastery"?

[Sauzin]

Who says a single art can't be well rounded?

By the simple fact that unless you have unlimited time, it isn't going to happen.

Actually that's exactly how arts work. For example, maybe you trained in 2 or 3 different traditional arts and threw in some boxing and/or judo in there. Now after having done that for 20 years, it's your turn to teach. Is the art you are teaching now "well rounded"? What makes you think that the person who taught you one of those traditional arts didn't do the same thing? What about the person who taught him? As an art gets passed from one individual with different skills to another it rounds out. Like a stone in a river bed. Different subtle skills get added as time progresses. That's what I call the evolution of an art, and as a matter of fact an art does have limitless time to do so. Assuming it gets passed on.

"Well rounded" doesn't mean being the best at everything. It means being good at a lot of things. No one can really say they are the best at everything. First of all I doubt anyone knows what "everything" is. Secondly, you are correct in stating that every individual, including the instructor, is going to have different skill levels. That doesn't mean they aren't well rounded, that means they are human.

[Shorinryu Sensei]

So you can probably guess from what I do that I prefer the "well rounded" approach, I like to punch, kick, tie up, take down, roll around, ground and pound a little, throughh in some submissions and then hit people with a stick.

I think what Sauzin was saying was that what you describe above is exactly what he and I do in our traditional martial art...so what's the difference? We kick, punch, tie up, take down, roll around, ground and pound a little, through in some submissions and then hit people with a stick (we call it kobudo btw) also.

There are "well rounded" traditional arts out there, but most people with MMA training believe that all we do in karate (and yes, some systems do this) is kick and punch. Or that all TKD does is kick. That is a misconception. Not all systems of karate or TKD (I can't believe I'm sticking up for TKD! ) are like that.

[elbows_and_knees]

Hey guys, here's a question that goes out to everyone of all styles.

Would you rather have a very proficient understanding, including experience and useage of a single art (this could be either stand up fighting or grappling), as opposed to moderate understanding, experience and useage of more than one art?

As for the former, you would work very defensively against your "opposing" skill, your main focus and plan of attack being your single art.

The scenarios would be a street confrontation and a MMA fight.

there's a flaw there. Everyone always assumes the well rounded guy will not master anything. Why?

[elbows_and_knees]

So you can probably guess from what I do that I prefer the "well rounded" approach, I like to punch, kick, tie up, take down, roll around, ground and pound a little, throughh in some submissions and then hit people with a stick.

I think what Sauzin was saying was that what you describe above is exactly what he and I do in our traditional martial art...so what's the difference? We kick, punch, tie up, take down, roll around, ground and pound a little, through in some submissions and then hit people with a stick (we call it kobudo btw) also.

There are "well rounded" traditional arts out there, but most people with MMA training believe that all we do in karate (and yes, some systems do this) is kick and punch. Or that all TKD does is kick. That is a misconception. Not all systems of karate or TKD (I can't believe I'm sticking up for TKD! ) are like that.

Right, but the rub there is that you don't focus on it as much. When I trained longfist, I didn't train throws very much at all. They were part of the system, and we learn them when learning forms applications, but we didn't focus on them. Same when I was in karate. In karate, we never did groundwork. In kung fu, it was minimal.

Styles have multiple facets, but they also have a focus, be it striking, grappling, kicking, etc. TKD has punches, but how often do you see them? Japanese karate has throws, but how often do you see them? Thai boxing has takedowns, but how often do you see them? By cross training, you accelerate your learning curve because you are exposed to a style that specializes in something. I currently train muay thai, capoeria and judo. When I get the chance I go back to bjj, which I have done about two years of. my fight game is MUCH better now than it was in my traditional days because muay thai focuses on striking and judo focuses on grappling. So, I have two solid days a week that it's guaranteed I will work throws and 4 solid days for striking. capoeira mixes the two.

With traditional styles, you have too much too learn and in typically shorter durations - 1hr, 3days per week, etc. it's hard to squeeze kicking, punching, kata, throws, locks, groundwork, weapons, cultural learning, bunkai, meditation, etc. into such a short span of time.

Actually that's exactly how arts work. For example, maybe you trained in 2 or 3 different traditional arts and threw in some boxing and/or judo in there. Now after having done that for 20 years, it's your turn to teach. Is the art you are teaching now "well rounded"? What makes you think that the person who taught you one of those traditional arts didn't do the same thing? What about the person who taught him? As an art gets passed from one individual with different skills to another it rounds out. Like a stone in a river bed. Different subtle skills get added as time progresses. That's what I call the evolution of an art, and as a matter of fact an art does have limitless time to do so. Assuming it gets passed on.

"Well rounded" doesn't mean being the best at everything. It means being good at a lot of things. No one can really say they are the best at everything. First of all I doubt anyone knows what "everything" is. Secondly, you are correct in stating that every individual, including the instructor, is going to have different skill levels. That doesn't mean they aren't well rounded, that means they are human.

it doesn't really work that way. What if you trained judo and karate, then you taught me. I learned throws and strikes, but I prefer strikes. Consequently, I teach my students my specialties - strikes. I may throw in a few throws, but changes are they will have less focus. This means that my students will learn less throwing than I did. And their students may learn even less. consequently, systems don't really round themselves out. At the end of the day, karate is still known for it's strikes. After all these hundreds of years, why has it not rounded itself out and become known for more? Why haven't thai arts become known for throwing?

you are correct, well rounded does not mean being the best at everything - but you have to train it to even get good. practicing throws twice a month (or less in most cases) will not make you good at throwing. It will increase your knowledge, but may not make you good.

[Shorinryu Sensei]

That would be nice...IF you had the money to take numerous different classes at the sme time, and IF you didn't have a life other than to devote to the study of various martial arts.

Myself, I have to work (you know...a job?) and that alone takes up well over 40 hours/week, then there are the other things like friends and family. I'm not married, but if I was, I'm sure she would be thrilled to have me come home from work and then disappear to martial arts training for another couple of hours.

Another thing to consider here is that different arts are designed for different purposes. Shorin Ryu, my chosen art, is designed for personal self-defense, not sport and not to be an all consuming forcus of my life. When I was 22 and just getting into the art, yes, I worked out considerbly more than I do now because I had the time and energy to do so. Now at 52, I have other interests....but I have the skills also to be able to defend myself if need be. My focus isn't to be a killing machine or enter the UFC of some other sort of competition.

[elbows_and_knees]

That would be nice...IF you had the money to take numerous different classes at the sme time, and IF you didn't have a life other than to devote to the study of various martial arts.

that is the beauty of MMA schools. All under one roof. All a workable price. And you can do it while retaining a life.

Myself, I have to work (you know...a job?) and that alone takes up well over 40 hours/week, then there are the other things like friends and family. I'm not married, but if I was, I'm sure she would be thrilled to have me come home from work and then disappear to martial arts training for another couple of hours.

I have two jobs - web developer by day, bouncer by night. And I have a family. All of that is workable.

Another thing to consider here is that different arts are designed for different purposes. Shorin Ryu, my chosen art, is designed for personal self-defense, not sport and not to be an all consuming forcus of my life. When I was 22 and just getting into the art, yes, I worked out considerbly more than I do now because I had the time and energy to do so. Now at 52, I have other interests....but I have the skills also to be able to defend myself if need be. My focus isn't to be a killing machine or enter the UFC of some other sort of competition.

I don't disagree with that. Any style can be used for self defense, however. I've mentioned before on these forums a recent incident where a thai boxer chased three knife wielding assailants out of his home. Two went to the hospital.

[Shorinryu Sensei]

If you would please elbows_and_knees, please respond to my comments about my chosen system doing all of the things that you state your MMA does. What's the difference?

Sure, we do kata and you don't...but it's a method of teaching your body to move and teach muscle memory. MMA does the same by hitting bags (which we do also), sparring with an opponent (we do also), practicing self-defense techniques (we do also)...so...what's the difference???

[IcemanSK]

That would be nice...IF you had the money to take numerous different classes at the sme time, and IF you didn't have a life other than to devote to the study of various martial arts.

Myself, I have to work (you know...a job?) and that alone takes up well over 40 hours/week, then there are the other things like friends and family. I'm not married, but if I was, I'm sure she would be thrilled to have me come home from work and then disappear to martial arts training for another couple of hours.

Another thing to consider here is that different arts are designed for different purposes. Shorin Ryu, my chosen art, is designed for personal self-defense, not sport and not to be an all consuming forcus of my life. When I was 22 and just getting into the art, yes, I worked out considerbly more than I do now because I had the time and energy to do so. Now at 52, I have other interests....but I have the skills also to be able to defend myself if need be. My focus isn't to be a killing machine or enter the UFC of some other sort of competition.

Ah, there's the rub. A job & a life. But also, a style vs. techniques. MMA takes techniques they like/need & incorporate them. When one learns an art or style, its mastering that system (hence the thread). But as has been aluded to, most have the luxury of taking time (& expense) to learn a smorgasboard of styles to be as "well-rounded" as others. And fewer still ever come across the need to defend themselves on the street in their lifetime anyway. So, being "well-rounded is not an issue.

[elbows_and_knees]

If you would please elbows_and_knees, please respond to my comments about my chosen system doing all of the things that you state your MMA does. What's the difference?

Sure, we do kata and you don't...but it's a method of teaching your body to move and teach muscle memory. MMA does the same by hitting bags (which we do also), sparring with an opponent (we do also), practicing self-defense techniques (we do also)...so...what's the difference???

I did state the difference - focus. Another difference would be length of time to achieve proficiency.

Styles have multiple facets, but they also have a focus, be it striking, grappling, kicking, etc. TKD has punches, but how often do you see them? Japanese karate has throws, but how often do you see them? Thai boxing has takedowns, but how often do you see them? By cross training, you accelerate your learning curve because you are exposed to a style that specializes in something. I currently train muay thai, capoeria and judo. When I get the chance I go back to bjj, which I have done about two years of. my fight game is MUCH better now than it was in my traditional days because muay thai focuses on striking and judo focuses on grappling. So, I have two solid days a week that it's guaranteed I will work throws and 4 solid days for striking. capoeira mixes the two.

[Sauzin]

This conflicts with...

it doesn't really work that way. What if you trained judo and karate, then you taught me. I learned throws and strikes, but I prefer strikes. Consequently, I teach my students my specialties - strikes. I may throw in a few throws, but changes are they will have less focus. This means that my students will learn less throwing than I did. And their students may learn even less. consequently, systems don't really round themselves out. At the end of the day, karate is still known for it's strikes. After all these hundreds of years, why has it not rounded itself out and become known for more? Why haven't thai arts become known for throwing?

...this...

that is the beauty of MMA schools. All under one roof. All a workable price. And you can do it while retaining a life.

...if you apply it to your argument. Where's the truth? Some where in the middle I think. Yes every teacher will have his specialties. When I speak of being well rounded, I'm not talking about spherical. There will be somethings that will be better then other things. This is true of each student and each teacher. The trick is that they are not the same specialties and not the same background. This is what rounds out arts. To say that as a MMA you have the monopoly on well roundness what you need to do is bring an argument to the table that only applies to one side. So far everything you've said applies just as much to an MMA class as it does a traditional art.

You asked why after all these years is Karate known for it's striking? Simple answer. For the same reason people know Idaho for it's potatoes, even though we export about as much wheat and barley as we do potatoes and almost twice as much beef. What you have is a bunch of people who don't live here and don't farm making assumptions. Same with karate. Traditional karate is an inclusive art, that is very much mixed already. Sure Funikoshi and countless other Japanese and Okinawans have been all to eager to exploit karate's claim to fame, it's striking, to further popularize the style, but in all reality karate is much more then just potatoes. Problem is you have to go there to find out for yourself.

you are correct, well rounded does not mean being the best at everything - but you have to train it to even get good. practicing throws twice a month (or less in most cases) will not make you good at throwing. It will increase your knowledge, but may not make you good.

What is well rounded and what isn't is very subjective. You can't say that you have to practice throws, strikes, and groundwork at least once or twice a month to qualify, because then someone asks, "Well what about breathing exercises, conditioning, stance work, perception training, weapons, etc. You can't be well rounded without these!". And maybe someone else thinks that the minimum should be 5 times a month for 15 other things that have nothing to do with the prior. Depending on who's looking and what importance they place on different things, MMA might be considered a specialized system of learning.

Truth be told, no one is perfectly well rounded either. Going back to my analogy comparing styles to rocks in a river bed, you're not going to find any perfectly spherical rocks. What you will find is many different shapes of rocks. Some more rounded then others. Some that have been in the stream a little longer. Others that might have a piece broken off or missing and haven't yet rounded out what's left. But given a little time, and good exposure in the river, it's only a matter of time. The old becomes new and the new becomes old.