Thrust Kicks: Where did they come from?

[JimmyNewton]

we do a side thrust kick in Kusankui Dai.

[Sensei Rick]

Kata were invented at a time when these flashy techniques didn't exist.

I'd actually claim that showy kicks and other acrobatic things have existed for a very long time - and have been trained by martial artists for fun and body control etc.

I'm am very familiar with your styles kata, would you please show me where they use a turning wheel kick or even a turning back kick in one off these. i'm not trying to start anything, just trying to let you know where im coming from in my comments. turning kicks aren't even mentioned in karate do kyhon. My current instructor studied with Robert Trias (opened first karate school in the US, right here in phoenix) and he was only taught a turning back kick at that school. We've come a long way baby.

[Jussi Häkkinen]

turning kicks aren't even mentioned in karate do kyhon.

Karate-do Kyohan was written by Gichin Funakoshi, a father of Shotokan karate. It's not same style as I do. Karate is not a style, it's a martial art which has several styles - maybe a hundred of them is a safe bet - with many branches even in those. A generalization about what is in karate or what is not in karate is a very dangerous thing to do.

However, people have bragged and done acrobatic things throughout the history. Wheel kicks exist actually in many Chinese martial arts. Still, when distilling the core of the fighting system to the kata/quan, mundane things and specialities are often left without mentioning. While acrobatic kicks may be good for gaining and maintaining balance and body mobility, their practicality is very doubtful (and yes, I've seen and fought many who are excellent in acrobatic and "special" kicks. I love them every time).

My current instructor studied with Robert Trias (opened first karate school in the US, right here in phoenix) and he was only taught a turning back kick at that school. We've come a long way baby.

First off, thank you for calling me "baby".

Second: Robert Trias did not have a strong backround in modern karate. It's commonly agreed that "Shuri-ryu" isn't a real old style (it's a creation of Mr. Trias himself). He obviously selected the techniques he did feel important.

There are stories of old masters doing jumping and acrobatic kicks (Soko Kishimoto and "Bushi" Tanemura are good examples, as well as Kosaku Matsumora) despite the lack of them in karate kata. Those kicks and acrobatics aren't a new thing - OK, some variations may have surfaced later (such as off-axis flipping kicks and other show competition specials), but the generic idea of challenging own balance and ability by doing something different is very old.

Kata isn't an ultimate list of techniques - it just gives you the principles of fighting, which is a completely different thing. You can apply the principles any way you want after learning them - occasionally a good application may include a more special kick (mostly not, usually it's all about practicality).

[peoplecallmemilk]

We use side, front & back thrust kicks (not snap kicks) extensively in my style (sukunaihayashi), for sparring and kihon but none of them are in our kata. Is it the same for other styles?

An interesting question. I think that you will find several from our kata when you look them more closely - especially from the bunkai aspect.

I recommend asking your sensei about it. Seisan is a fine example of a kata that has a thrust kick in its bunkai - it's rather self-explanatory after you see it.

My sensei was the one who pointed it out to me, so he doesnt know.

Seisan the only exception i know of so far. (and i may be wrong but i believe the old way called for more of a snapping kick then the pelvic thrust we now practice. I'll get clarification on that next class)

Thanks

The old way for the front kick in seisan wasn't really even a snap kick it was more like a quick little flick kick

Edited November 6, 2005 by peoplecallmemilk

[peoplecallmemilk]

my sensei recounted a conversation to me between himself and Zenpo. Zenpo stated that when he first started to compete in the USA (1963), other sensei would approach him asking what his style was, as they had never seen his type of kicking before (leaping thrust back kicks, side thrust kicks etc...) Id like to know if thats correct, can any of you older saltydogs tell me how common these types of kicks were back then in at least in competition

My sensei also said that all these kicks were taught to Zenryo by Kyan except for the front thrust (the way we currently practice it), which he (my sensei) said he adopted from shotokan, as I'm sure many others have also.

If none of the old unchanged kata have clearly defined thrust kicks, but now all karate styles have thrust kicks, when did the hundredth monkey phenomenon take place and who was that monkey?

thanks