Thrust Kicks: Where did they come from?

[peoplecallmemilk]

We use side, front & back thrust kicks (not snap kicks) extensively in my style (sukunaihayashi), for sparring and kihon but none of them are in our kata. Is it the same for other styles?

[Gyte]

Well, karate wasn't originally a kicking style. Karate was heavily influenced by Southern Chinese styles. Southern Chinese styles rely more on their hand techniques than on kicking techniques. Since many kata originate in China, they will contain very few kicking techniques.

The Shotokan style, which I practise, had in the beginning also very less kicking. Kicks like the side snap kick, side thrust kick, roundhouse kick and spinning back kick were added over time. Also in some katas some front kicks were replaced by side kicks.

Edited November 3, 2005 by Gyte

[Jussi Häkkinen]

We use side, front & back thrust kicks (not snap kicks) extensively in my style (sukunaihayashi), for sparring and kihon but none of them are in our kata. Is it the same for other styles?

An interesting question. I think that you will find several from our kata when you look them more closely - especially from the bunkai aspect.

I recommend asking your sensei about it. Seisan is a fine example of a kata that has a thrust kick in its bunkai - it's rather self-explanatory after you see it.

[peoplecallmemilk]

We use side, front & back thrust kicks (not snap kicks) extensively in my style (sukunaihayashi), for sparring and kihon but none of them are in our kata. Is it the same for other styles?

An interesting question. I think that you will find several from our kata when you look them more closely - especially from the bunkai aspect.

I recommend asking your sensei about it. Seisan is a fine example of a kata that has a thrust kick in its bunkai - it's rather self-explanatory after you see it.

My sensei was the one who pointed it out to me, so he doesnt know.

Seisan the only exception i know of so far. (and i may be wrong but i believe the old way called for more of a snapping kick then the pelvic thrust we now practice. I'll get clarification on that next class)

Thanks

[Menjo]

Basic human anatomy and its functioning and practibility of the technique

[peoplecallmemilk]

could it be like the vertical fist (Tatsuo Shimabukuro), 3/4 fist (Chotoku Kyan) when punching, are thrust kicks are an innovation

if so who if anyone was the innovator?

[Jussi Häkkinen]

could it be like the vertical fist (Tatsuo Shimabukuro), 3/4 fist (Chotoku Kyan) when punching, are thrust kicks are an innovation

3/4 fist is actually a lot older thing than Chotoku Kyan. Kyan just decided that he wanted to keep that way of striking, probably due to the natural feeling of it.

if so who if anyone was the innovator?

Very hard to say. Thrust kicks are an old way as well - stomping and thrusting movements are rather natural. Take note that when there's a kick in a kata, it's most often "supported" (i.e. done after grabbing and controlling the opponent). Noticing that will help to see the places for bunkai that benefits from such a kick.

Kata isn't WYSIWYG (what you see is what you get). It's concentrating on principles and ideas, instead. It won't give you the whole package of techniques - it gives examples and generalizations that allow you to study the major principles of fighting, instead of going to an exact "if-then" -level.

Techniques are a mundane thing - there are a lot more logical techniques than kata does show (and Okinawans knew a whole array of them). Kata really isn't a "how-to" -guide for techniques. An example: Do a grab from Passai, pull the opponent. He doesn't act the way you'd like and you have to angle the kick a bit to strike the area you wish. OK, what is an angled maegeri keage? (It's a mawashigeri - and it exists in old karate as well. As a principle and as a logical technique. )

Thrusting, stomping and snapping (actually, arcing would be a better word here, instead of "snapping") kicks are all logical things to use. You can see these things as logical and principal ideas in several kata - in Passai, Seisan, Gojushiho, Naifanchi, Kusanku etc.. Questions such as "where am I shifting my weights?", "How am I stepping in relation to opponent?" and "What does this position allow me to do?" are important when thinking about the actual contents of a kata. That way one can see that thrusting and stomping kicks definitely are a part of kata.

[Sensei Rick]

I use jump-spinning kicks frequently in fighting and drill these many times in my class. My student must all perform turn reverse crescent, turning wheel, turning round house, butterfly kick for brown belt. (And many others) for black belt, they must add the jump to all of these. I am familiar with many kata outside my own two styles. Never have I seen ANY of these kicks in a kata yet, I didn't think about it until just now. These types of kicks are obviously "new" to martial arts. I have wanted to invent kata's that incorporate my "fighting and kicking" style. I want to create Kata's that teach my student to fight how I fight. I even want to do them as two-man kata, where they could stand alone, or be preformed together and suddenly you'd have a fighting seen.

Kata were invented at a time when these flashy techniques didn't exist. Who know what will become in the future. I have always taught the sidekick in penan nidan as a side snap kick. Some students perform a side thrust kick simply because of their hip position and lack of flexibility. They turn their bottom more towards the target, and drive the heal out. Does this make the kata wrong? I think not. I think that thrusting and snapping may have been interpretation on an instructor’s part. Funakoshi writes "I suffer no pretense that these kata will remain in tack the way I perform them now" (me paraphrasing} "nor do I believe they should" Karate is like the constitution. It is an amazing instrument. The founding fathers allow for amendments.

[Jussi Häkkinen]

Kata were invented at a time when these flashy techniques didn't exist.

I'd actually claim that showy kicks and other acrobatic things have existed for a very long time - and have been trained by martial artists for fun and body control etc.

[Jay]

hands are faster than feet but feet are more powerful i think in shotokan oriinally we wanted to get the fight over and done with as quickly as possible