How does one disagree with upper rank?

[shogeri]

There is usually nothing wrong with asking questions, and asking for further explanation.

Going up against someone you think is wrong. Well, just do so with respect, and follow whatever code of honor, or chain of commnad that is in place.

Better to not know, and ask. Than to not ask, and not know.

Just more thoughts...

[BJJShotoshe]

This is the way I see it...

If the senior is respectable and honorable (no big headed about the belt they wear) then you should take them off to the side after class and discuss it with them in a calm manner and make sure you have evidence to back it up!!!!

If the senior is not respectable and not honorable (really big headed, I have one in my dojo) then just faltly disagree with them in class in front of everyone, however, make sure you still have the evidence to back it up, you must be sure 150% that you are correct. Maybe when they realize they are wrong, then they will be brought back down to reality.

I am really big on this as our ONE black belt who waves his belt in my face every chance he gets has set a spoken rule that high rank is always right (a bunch of crap if you ask me). But I solve his problem when I spar him and punch in the face, make him mad, and kick the living crap out of him. Crashing to earth he comes.

[DKizzle]

ahh, but what if you 'are' right?

My whole point was that if they are considerably higher-ranked than you, you're not.

And I said asking questions was fine. Just don't be a jerk thinking you're the one who's right, not the 7th Degree Black Belt teaching you. We have a couple of clowns at our school who like to think they're right.

[White Warlock]

ahh, but what if you 'are' right?

My whole point was that if they are considerably higher-ranked than you, you're not.

Ahh, but 'everyone' in 'every' belt-system school i visit is 'considerably' higher-ranked than me, and i find myself repeatedly disagreeing with their assertions (i have no ranks, yet have studied for almost 30 years). Not only that, i demonstrate the fallacy of their perceptions.

But this is another point... if "I" can find something wrong in their assumptions, how is it not possible that someone of 'lessor' skill or training cannot? I mean, i repeatedly subject myself to the scrutiny of 'untrained' persons, like my brother, and find that what was presented by someone else is not all it's cracked up to be. I.e., i get schooled by 'untrained' persons, as well as trained persons, so i'm not willing to accept the idea that someone who is not skilled in a particular art doesn't have good insight into 'common sense,' mechanics, physics, anatomy, or psychology.

So, what i'm saying here is pretty straightforward. NOBODY has all the answers, nor is ANYONE immune from self-delusions. There are plenty of practitioners out there that have been 'programmed' to believe their stuff works, when in an actual confrontation... it does not. Things practiced at half-speed will always work, but bring it to full-speed, present unexpected variables, and add in a sudden onslaught of adrenal surge... and that self-same 'expert' is going to flounder in his ability to perform his techniques.

It's happened to some of the biggest names in the martial arts, so no... if you don't think something works, question. But also recognize the investment someone may have made to their belief system, and realize they may resist being 'converted' to common sense.

And I said asking questions was fine. Just don't be a jerk thinking you're the one who's right, not the 7th Degree Black Belt teaching you. We have a couple of clowns at our school who like to think they're right.

And they're not? It sounds like, because you refer to them as clowns, that they are 'vested' in their 'rightness,' and thus needing a dose of humility. But that's an entirely different issue, and one in which they KNOW they are wrong, but are unwilling to make the step into being humble and accepting the instructions being presented.

[shogeri]

In sum, we are all just human.

Nobody, not one, is above reproach.

[DKizzle]

I agree with the things you have said. Yes, those people at my school are utterly convinced they are right, and are given a "dose of humility" by the teacher, often quite painfully.

I was using the 'considerably higher ranked' thing just as a general description. I would describe someone who has studied 30 years as highly ranked, as that is almost as long as my teacher has been studying (35 years). I just used that since most systems use the belt ranks.

As for testing what you have learned with people who have not been trained, I do that as well. In school I will ask friends questions and work stuff with them, same with my siblings and parents sometimes. But I can't remember a time that something was just clearly wrong or ineffective. Maybe my style is just really good, I don't know. I do know that the teacher I learn from is not one of those martial artists who end up getting beat by some guy, as I have personally seen him be attacked in public, and it did not end up well for the other guy.

So, perhaps my advice was drawn solely from my personal experience, rather than what would work for most.

[Takezo]

well, no. my instructor is a shihan (above sensei) so theres no room for complaints or disagreements. specialy during training.

If im not sure about a move i just ask how it works and be like "ohh ok, so what if . . . ". Ask, dont disagree.

[patusai]

Disagreement is difficult. If it was a disagreement in Japan it would need to be handled one way since the Japanese custom of dissagreement is done differently. Since what you are speaking of is more than likely an American senior things would be different. Frankly, perhaps the best way to handle this is to see how the chief instructor at the school would want you to. I thought that Senior instructors use to cover this disagreement thing at the start. This way there was a logical and clear path to learning for both parties. Of course this was back in the day I suppose.