How does one disagree with upper rank?

[Geng]

Guys, I don't mean to be rude, respect is nice and everything, but.......

You are still a consumer. You can walk if you like. Instructors know that.

If you don't like something speak up.

[White Warlock]

It's always important to recognize what your motivations are in all this. It may be that you've got a chip on your shoulder with that particular student, or the instructor, and are hoping to 'put them in thier place,' or it may be that you are trying to impress. Whatever your personal motives may be, they have no place in the training hall.

That said, i come to various schools, put on a white belt, and practice along with everyone else. When a senior student presents something incorrectly, i don't even make a scene... i just say things like, "try this" or "you need to bring that closer to your body;" whatever is needed to help them refine their techniques. If they take offense to anything i say, i usually respond with something like, "your ego is invested in the training process." Basically, I'm not there to pacify someone else's ego, i'm there to learn in safety. An improperly performed technique is more likely to cause accidental injury.

Now, if the instructor is wrong in something he says, i reserve my comments for 'after class,' where i can talk to him in private. If he agrees with my assertion, and he's a respectable instructor, he'll correct himself in the next class and i will have avoided putting him on the spot. If he doesn't agree with my assertion, it's my turn to listen to 'why' he doesn't agree. If we still disagree, then so be it.

Not everyone is going to agree with me, nor am i going to agree with others. I don't pretend to know everything, and am always willing to learn new things, but sometimes i do feel i'm right and someone else is wrong, which isn't necessarily a good thing. In those instances i do a 'personal motives' check to see if i have any underlying issues with myself, with my perceptions, that may be clouding my judgement. After all, if i've been performing something in error for quite a long time, and communicated my belief in this error... it's going to be harder for me to disconnect my ego and say, "i'm wrong."

The same must be understood of others and we must both respect and recognize the potential commitment a person may have in their falsivities, and then be diplomatic and respectful enough to help them out of their ego-born dilemna. It's really not about, "i'm right, you're wrong"... and it never should be.

[DKizzle]

It would depend on who this upper belt is. From my experience, if you find yourself disagreeing with the Sensei, you are wrong. I have never seen anything to contradict this. Whenever someone in our classes has a question, the instuctor then demonstrates it on the person who asked. It usually hurts, and the teacher was always right.

Bottom line: If you want to say "That wouldn't work..." or "I would just do this or that if you tried that against me", don't.

[IcemanSK]

How about another type of situation. Lets say you're a 3rd Dan senior student who took the rest of the students to a tournament because your master instructor needed to go out of town & asked you to. During the tournament, another master instructor in your system tells you your students are sloppy & they don't have the right patches on their uniforms etc. Basically, telling you your instructor doesn't know any better.

In the real world (outside of MA) there are ways to deal w/ unprofesional & pushy people who have no business telling you anything about people that he's not over. (Besides Boot to the head! I mean). I'm sure I'm not the only one who's seen this type of thing. Some folks throw their rank around simply because they can. How would the senior BB's here handle this type of thing?

[coralreefer_1]

I would handle is in a respecful way as I could. frankly I dont care about patches unless it's violating some rule within the tournament or organization. When it comes to this kind of thing..I like to take the "Humble Man of the Bible" approach. That is, to bow and say something like .."Thank you for your wisdom and guidance" and move along. If a master would say something to you like that..he either (A)outranks your master, and feels like your students represent him somehow, and dont meet his expectations...(B) Your students are better than his, so he needs to find something to complain about...© Or is simply a plain butthead, and just cant help but to share his negative thoughts. In either case, I would not argue with his..regardless of his intentions..and move on. Let the skill of your students speak for itself.

Concerning "in class" disaggreement. i think it is always best to disagree with someone in private. I think that goes for lower ranking students as well. Higher ranking students, you deal with carefully because of their rank, and the egos that go along with a lower ranking person disagreeing, and privetly for lower ranking person too, because if to embaress them in front of others, even if someone else overhears, it could hurt them, and they lose respect for you, or even quit. But there is a difference in doing a technique is some poomse wrong, and having a real disagreement about something else. All situations should be tread carefully, simply because we are human, and should treat each other with respect all the time..not just in the dojang, regardless of whether the respect is returned or not.

[IcemanSK]

I would handle is in a respecful way as I could. frankly I dont care about patches unless it's violating some rule within the tournament or organization. When it comes to this kind of thing..I like to take the "Humble Man of the Bible" approach. That is, to bow and say something like .."Thank you for your wisdom and guidance" and move along. If a master would say something to you like that..he either (A)outranks your master, and feels like your students represent him somehow, and dont meet his expectations...(B) Your students are better than his, so he needs to find something to complain about...© Or is simply a plain butthead, and just cant help but to share his negative thoughts. In either case, I would not argue with his..regardless of his intentions..and move on. Let the skill of your students speak for itself.

Concerning "in class" disaggreement. i think it is always best to disagree with someone in private. I think that goes for lower ranking students as well. Higher ranking students, you deal with carefully because of their rank, and the egos that go along with a lower ranking person disagreeing, and privetly for lower ranking person too, because if to embaress them in front of others, even if someone else overhears, it could hurt them, and they lose respect for you, or even quit. But there is a difference in doing a technique is some poomse wrong, and having a real disagreement about something else. All situations should be tread carefully, simply because we are human, and should treat each other with respect all the time..not just in the dojang, regardless of whether the respect is returned or not.

Thanks Reefer. That's more of the kind of help I was looking for. I should have been more clear. Since you have a daily opportunity to see how to handle these situations. Your words have much weight. I went from a master who everyone respected (in our class & other masters) to a guy that few respected (I found out why years later) to a class that had no rank system & only respected those who earned it. (Regardless of rank).

Now I'm getting back into tradition class situations & trying to find my way again. Thanks for your words.

[White Warlock]

Bottom line: If you want to say "That wouldn't work..." or "I would just do this or that if you tried that against me", don't.

In the case of most people, i would tend to agree with you. On the other hand, if you have prior experience, or your 'teacher' has less experience, insight, or skill than you do (and this does present itself quite often), then disagreeing is entirely reasonable.

The other thing is, though... if you have a question, always ask. Don't just take things at face value, understand the 'why'... not merely the 'how.' And while you may not be ready for the 'why,' at least allow your teacher the opportunity to make that choice by the manner in which he answers your question.

[DKizzle]

I'm completely for asking the questions, but in my case that means being prepared to learn how they work. And my point was that if they're considerably more advanced than you (Me = Blue, Instructor = 7th/8th Degree, depending who's teaching), don't believe that you're right.

[White Warlock]

ahh, but what if you 'are' right?

[Bleeding Lion]

Bottom line: If you want to say "That wouldn't work..." or "I would just do this or that if you tried that against me", don't.

I dont agree with that. My sensei and his assistant are always happy when someone has a question like any instructor in general. They are happy to explain further because your question shows you are interested and not just doing some brainless absorption of knowledge.

Think about it, if you disagree, that means you probably did not understand something, so a question will clean this up.

And usually i find that having a technique demonstrated on you gives you a much better understanding of it especially if it hurts a little (unless of course, if your sensei is a maniac who should not be teaching in the first place and breaks a bone).