No need for WTF

[Aodhan]

I wouldn't want to see everyone doing the exact same techniques, the exact same way under the exact same standards. This goes contrary to the whole reason I train, which is to find out as much about myself, with as much freedom of expression as possible.

Ah, I see, and I think I can explain some of it. Yes, the forms are regulated, and taught the same way from school to school. However, there are individual differences that creep in from school to school and instructor to instructor. Let me dig up a post from another board discussing what we call "regional variance".

The moves and strike locations, etc are the same and should be taught the same. It's slight differences in technique that should be accounted for in regional variance.

Here's a great example from the instructor camp I was just at. We were going over the inner forearm block with SM Kohl, and he was relating his reasons for keeping the upper arm horizontal with the ground, and the lower (blocking) portion, out at about a 45-50 degree angle. He also said that it isn't necessarily the only way to do it, and he gave us his reasons for his preference. He also made clear to us that there will be differences, and that there isn't really a right or wrong answer for it. The VERY NEXT DAY, we were dissecting Songahm 1 with a 5th degree, and he gave us his reasons for prefering the inner forearm block to be at a 90 degree angle for the lower arm. Two high level instructors, two different methods of doing the same block, neither one wrong.

We also were going over side kicks later that day, and we all got in a discussion with SM Kohl and SM Babin about the chamber, and the difference between a "Korean" chamber, and an "American" one, and the disadvantages and advantages of each. It was a good 45 minute discussion. The difference in the chambers? The location of the knee, with a difference of about 2 inches. That's it.

So, there you have 3 very senior ranks, with several interpretations of the same technique.

What regional variances is NOT intended to cover, is someone doing a face level punch when it's supposed to be midsection, or a mid level round kick when it's supposed to be head level (Your OWN head).

So, there are differences in interpretation of the techniques (Oh, and SM stands for Senior Master, our seventh degree rank). The ATA isn't about producing "cookie cutter" black belts, the reason they maintain control over the instruction is to ensure that the forms don't get distorted away from the base moves, and maintain high standards of instruction.

The forms are regulated, the interpretation of how to do the move is not. As long as someone I am judging or teaching gets a side kick into the proper position, with reasonable speed and power, then it doesn't matter if they chambered in front, behind their head, or whatever (Within a reasonable amount, of course.)

Aodhan

[Ottman]

So you're saying the reason for these orgs. is to regulate forms? If so, my school is officially a WTF school, but we do forms from both ITF and WTF standards, as well as other arts. Therefore, could the WTF come in and take away our certification, or could we be dually certified, and either way, why would we want to go to the trouble? What does either organization do for us? As far as I know, they do nothing for us (but I'll have to ask my instructor about this, 'cus I'm not sure what they might do.) I am sure, however, that if you asked 10 students from my school, at random, what org. we belonged to, 9 of them probably wouldn't know, and most of them probably haven't even heard of either WTF or ITF, or ATA for that matter. So I guess my question is: what exactly do these organizations currently regulate, and if so few people know about them, then why do we need them? And if we don't need them now, why have them come in and start dictating how and what to teach?

[Aodhan]

So you're saying the reason for these orgs. is to regulate forms? If so, my school is officially a WTF school, but we do forms from both ITF and WTF standards, as well as other arts. Therefore, could the WTF come in and take away our certification, or could we be dually certified, and either way, why would we want to go to the trouble? What does either organization do for us? As far as I know, they do nothing for us (but I'll have to ask my instructor about this, 'cus I'm not sure what they might do.) I am sure, however, that if you asked 10 students from my school, at random, what org. we belonged to, 9 of them probably wouldn't know, and most of them probably haven't even heard of either WTF or ITF, or ATA for that matter. So I guess my question is: what exactly do these organizations currently regulate, and if so few people know about them, then why do we need them? And if we don't need them now, why have them come in and start dictating how and what to teach?

Other than dealing with certification standards and Olympic type stuff, I have no idea what the WTF governing body does. ATA headquarters administers high rank tests, keeps track of tournament points, runs both national events and the worlds, creates/refines weapons and regular curriculum, certifies instructors, provides tons of business instruction and help to new school owners, regulates form structure (Not necessarily how to execute technique), and I'm sure a lot of other stuff I don't know about yet.

However, ATA is somewhat different in that it is a "closed" organization. To teach ATA forms you must be currently in and registered with the ATA, ATA tournaments require current ATA membership and training, etc.

My thought was that a governing body should provide basic standards for school operations, covering everything from instruction to operation. Otherwise, why even have it? If you know the Pal Gue or Tae Guk forms and are a 2nd degree, just go off an open your own school. No support, but noone looking over your shoulder either.

I personally like having a strong influence from a governing body, that way I am assured that no matter where I go, I have an expectation of training that should be met, and if it isn't met, I have a place to go for grievance.

If you go to a WTF school, and get slipshod instruction, is there anywhere you can go to get redress?

Aodhan

[Ottman]

Well luckily I haven't had the problem of slipshod instruction, and I have been known to be a fiercely independent, rugged individual, so maybe my attitude twoards the whole notion of a governing body is skewed, but if you're talking about an organization where the entire operation of martial arts training is completely standardized, sure you have a measure of what to expect, but you end up closing yourself off to a lot of possibilities for expanding your training and skills. You end up working twoards the standard and competing according to this standard, and in becoming fixated on attaining and maintaing this standard, you neglect a lot of exploration into other aspects of martial arts training, and thus are only able to function within this standard.

The ATA, as you've described it, sounds a lot like what the WTF is accused of being. I hear people thrash the WTF for only teaching to be able to win at olympic style sparring, and therefore it doesn't teach the self defense and discipline philopsophies that are an integral part of the martial arts. We hear the word mcdojang quite often when talking of the WTF, and the ATA seems to be doing that exact thing: Churning out cookie cutter dojangs. Now I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that they maintain very high standards of instruction, but can they hold their own against other styles? Is there enough variety, and potential for exploration in a standardized training program to be able to teach students to be able to adapt and react to any situation? Will the instructors be able to look at each students different abilities, strengths and weaknesses to adapt the training program to the student, or will they simply measure the students ability according to the blueprint the ATA has outlined? These are questions I would have, the answers to which would determine my view of ATA Tae Kwon Do as a true martial arts training program, or just a competetive sport that can't really hold its own outside of its own organization. This is the group-think syndrom that I'm afraid all these governing bodies are a catalyst to, and I personally see them as diluting the arts they represent for exactly that reason.

[Ottman]

P.S.

If you go to a WTF school, and get slipshod instruction, is there anywhere you can go to get redress?

Yeah, you can switch schools and find a better instructor. I've always been a supporter of being proactive. Waiting for a governing body to fix things doesn't appeal to me, nor give me confidence at all.

[White Warlock]

Just to be the pain here, i've visited plenty of ATA schools and found 'shoddy' instruction. If said organization is working to regulate instruction quality, i can only assume they're at the beginning stages of these efforts.

[MasterH]

Well, from what I know and who I know for every one "bad" ATA instructor you know, I know 20 "good" instructors. I'm not trying to be a pain either, but you have found the bad apples my friend and I hope you have better luck in the future when dealing with the ATA.

[Patrick]

How can you know how many good instructors you know for every bad one that he knows if you don't know how many bad ones he knows?

[MasterH]

How can you know how many good instructors you know for every bad one that he knows if you don't know how many bad ones he knows?

Point accepted..........but at my rank, I have trained with many and I doubt he knows more than a few.

[Aodhan]

How can you know how many good instructors you know for every bad one that he knows if you don't know how many bad ones he knows?

I don't know how many he knows, I know about 24 instructors, about 8 personally pretty well. Out of those 24, I'd peg 3 as all about the money, and about 3-4 more as decent instructors, but nothing awe inspiring. The rest range from pretty good to downright incredible.

I'd guess that those proportions are probably pretty close to just about every large MA organization out there. 10-12% in it for the money, about 15-20% just kind of competent, and the rest ranging on up.

Aodhan