No need for WTF

[IcemanSK]

I don't think the ATA, WTF, ITF, etc. have any business setting standards for instruction at all. These organizations function NOT to dictate to instructors what/how/when/where/why they should be teaching, but to bring together instructors and martial artists under an organization that can determine standardized rules for competitions, and provide services to help the instructors with their BUSINESS, not their teaching.

Not true as far as the ATA is concerned. As far as I know, WTF and ITF don't dictate which set of forms you should use (Pal gue, tae guk, etc). ATA does. The Songahm style of forms is copyrighted by the ATA, and to teach them, you must be certified by the ATA. This is done to keep standards high, and the same no matter where you go.

Also, the ATA teacher certification process teaches you HOW to teach. It has class management skills, organization, class planning, etc etc. You don't pass the certifications? You don't get to teach independently. WTF and ITF, as soon as you have the rank, you can go open a school.

Also, the ATA has standards in place to keep ATA schools from opening on top of one another. WTF/ITF if you open a school, there is nothing to keep another instructor from opening across the street.

Which would you rather have? A governing organization that sets standards and enforces them for quality instruction, or one that lets any 2nd degree with some bucks open a school?

Aodhan

Both the WTF & ITF (they are strick about it) require certain forms.

[MasterH]

The ATA is a closed org. You have to be a card holding member to have insight, Aodahn does, I used to. The ATA is not just buisness, it's an entire curriculum. Most of it's instructors were brought up from white belts in the ATA and are use to it's complete controll over everything, that's all they have ever seen - and in my opinion that cool. One of the reasons my instructor left the ATA was because of this. Something else the ATA does not due is farm out their material, meaning there will never be an indepentant ATA school. ITF and WTF both allow others to use their forms, you use an ATA Songahm form with out permission - you will be sued.

[Aodhan]

Both the WTF & ITF (they are strick about it) require certain forms.

Okay, that's good to know. It wasn't that way when I was in it (quite a few years ago), good to know they've standardized.

Thanks!!

Aodhan

[MasterH]

Both the WTF & ITF (they are strick about it) require certain forms.

Okay, that's good to know. It wasn't that way when I was in it (quite a few years ago), good to know they've standardized.

Thanks!!

Aodhan

No, they have not standardized. I teach both ITF and WTF material, I have no Kuk cert and my ITF cert ran out years ago.

[IcemanSK]

Both the WTF & ITF (they are strick about it) require certain forms.

Okay, that's good to know. It wasn't that way when I was in it (quite a few years ago), good to know they've standardized.

Thanks!!

Aodhan

No, they have not standardized. I teach both ITF and WTF material, I have no Kuk cert and my ITF cert ran out years ago.

I stand corrected.

[frightmaster]

ITF teaches the PAwlges forms

WTF teaches the Tae Geuk forms.

Which is better? Niether. Thier only different. In fact my master knows them both, as well as other forms, and I look forwards to learning them both. They are ways to practice moves/stances. As I said they are only different. Come to think of it, we are all different so I think it is a GOOD FIT.

[MasterH]

ITF teaches the PAwlges forms

WTF teaches the Tae Geuk forms.

Which is better? Niether. Thier only different. In fact my master knows them both, as well as other forms, and I look forwards to learning them both. They are ways to practice moves/stances. As I said they are only different. Come to think of it, we are all different so I think it is a GOOD FIT.

Can't argue that, it's your opinion. I will say that the ITF does focus more on forms and the WTF focus is on sparring. Have you seem Moon-Moo or Chu-Chae (sp) great ITF forms. And when you get to the Black Belt level for WTF the forms do start going down hill.

[IcemanSK]

MasterH:

I was under the impression that the ITF standard was the Chang Hong forms (as I believe they're called) Chon-Ji, Chong Moo, Chu Chae etc. And the Tae Guek forms (1-8, w/out cool names) were standard for the WTF. And that the Pal Gue forms were older forms common to both at one time.

I believe you that neither are standard for either organization. I think it would be hard to test for ITF rank w/out performing the Chang Hong forms. But I've been around long enough to believe just about anything can happen.

I've trained doing the Tae Guek forms & the last 2 Pal Gue forms (which I liked a lot) & the Chang Hong forms (which I thought were much more interesting as the ranks progressed). The ITF does hold a special place for their forms. I was just at an ITF website where there's huge activity in the "forms forum" but not much on the sparring forum.

I don't mind that there are 3 sets (Pal Gue, Tae Guek, & Chang Hong) forms. Or that any organization would allow each for testing. The problem comes when Master X only knows one set & thinks that those are "the one true way" to forms. I envision a more open world, where the 3 exist in harmony. Oh well, I can dream, can't I?

[MasterH]

Good points. Don't forget the Songham (ATA) forms. In my opinion they are the best - and I can't teach them. We (Hwa-Rang Taekwondo Federation) teach ITF (Chong-Ji on on) for color belts and a a combo of Two ITF forms and one WTF form per Dan rank. ITF/WTF/ATA in harmony....that'll be the day.......no really it's on the scedule. Just wait it will happen sooner than you think.

[Ottman]

Iceman and Aodhan,

You both make some interesting points, and I didn't know that the ATA went to such great lengths to promote quality instruction, but I still stand firm that these organizations are in it more for business than anything else, and therefore should stay out of monitoring the quality of instruction. If they want to offer classes for instructors in how to teach under their certain standards, that's fine, great even, especially if the instructors are interested, but if they are able to control what/how/where an instructor teaches, then I have a major problem with that. Martial arts are an expression of the self after all, and if they become too regulated by organizations and beauracracies, then they run the risk of losing this very fundamental part of the training itself.

I wouldn't want to see everyone doing the exact same techniques, the exact same way under the exact same standards. This goes contrary to the whole reason I train, which is to find out as much about myself, with as much freedom of expression as possible. If I can find an instructor who can help to accomplish this, then I don't care what s/he is certified in, (or if they're certified at all.)

Again, if the ATA, WTF, ITF, or whoever else, want to put on tournaments and promote the sport of TKD then they certainly should maintain standards for being able to compete in these tournaments, and competitors not instructors, should need to be certified that they know the rules and understand the method of competition. This should not be something that the ATA, WTF, or ITF impose on instructors before they are able to teach a martial art they have mastered. Maybe I'm putting too much faith into the student being able to figure out whether the instructor is a quality instructor or not, but that's jsut the way I think.