HOw easy is it to get a kicker down onto the ground?

[JohnnyS]

The way that strikers talk, you'd think that everytime they land a kick or punch in training that they have incapacited their sparring partner.

 

I came from a TKD background, before moving on to Okinawan Goju-Ryu. At that time a group or us who were all black belts and used to tough sparring got together for training. We saw Gracie in Action and tried the takedown and mount method on each other. We would allow one person to only grapple, and the other person could punch, kick and knee as hard as they want (no gloves or pads). Everytime the grappler took the other person down (and this is guys with no takedown experience). Sometimes we'd cop a black eye, but it never stopped the takedown. We quickly realised that kicks especially left you vulnerable to the takedown. If you throw a kick and your opponent blocks or parries it, there is a half second in which you have to pull you leg back to re-chamber it or put it on the ground. This is the perfect opportunity for the grappler to move in and secure the clinch then takedown.

 

Consequently, we have all since left TKD and karate and moved on to Shootfighting and BJJ.

 

Ti-Kwon-Leap, John Will is my instructor. I'm glad you got something from his seminar. I'd be surprised if you didn't as John is an excellent instructor.

[Ti-Kwon-Leap]

John Will an amazing instructor, who I would train with in a second if I had the chance, he is also very funny and quick witted as well.

 

When you see him tell him the guy from Portland (who showed up with a broken rib) wishes him well.

 

You are a lucky man, JohnnyS.

[Ti-Kwon-Leap]

Accidentally double posted... Edited March 19, 2003 by Ti-Kwon-Leap

[BKJ1216]

Well If striker uses a lot of evading and is in and out very quickly with his strikes, how much of a chance does he have?

[Kyle-san]

Well If striker uses a lot of evading and is in and out very quickly with his strikes, how much of a chance does he have?

 

If he's lazy and leaves his leg hanging out for too long, not much at all.

[JohnnyS]

BKJ1216 wrote:

 

"Well If striker uses a lot of evading and is in and out very quickly with his strikes, how much of a chance does he have?"

 

Frankly, without a decent knowledge of grappling, the answer is "Not much". It's really just a matter of time before the clinch and then the takedown.

 

Think of it this way - Kostya Tzuyu, a world champion boxer is known for connecting with 40% of his strikes (which is apparently very high). Kostya doesn't knock his opponent out everytime he lands a strike, so what make you think you could, assuming you could even connect with a clean shot ?

 

Even Maurice Smith, a world champion kickboxer and one of the hardest hitters in the world in his prime, couldn't stop the fight going to the ground in MMA fights. His early MMA matches saw his striking rendered useless. Maurice improved a lot once he learnt how to grapple, but even then he still couldn't stop being taken to the ground.

 

Somewhat ironically, the most effective strikers in MMA seem to be also the people who have a grappling background as they can strike and not worry about ending up on the ground because "Hey, that's where they wanted to be anyway".

[Withers M.A.A.]

Wow, I haven't been around in over 6 months and this topic is still going. That is amazing!!!!

[craknek]

KoreanTiger81,

 

Let me be completely honest with you KoreanTiger. Alot of what people say here should be taken with a grain of salt. Everyone thinks there style is the best, everyone thinks they have a counter to everything. Everyone thinks.. ohh to take a kicker down, all you have to do is this and that.

 

The real truth is Koreantiger, you should never underestimate your opp never matter what style he/she is. Underestimating is a sign of ignorance and arrogance...both weaknesses. It is one thing to have pride in your style, it is another thing to think your style is the best. You will find alot of people have these easy fix all answers to something. As for stopping a kick.. hey, i am sure kickers have had there fair share of being taken down.. just like every art, I am also sure that some JJ guys have been on the recieving end of a Judo throw, or a Karate fist to the sturnam, or a Hapkido counter, or a TKD kick to the head.......Part of the philosphy in alot of MA's, is that you have to look at your opp as if he was on the same lvl as you, if you over-estimate him, you will be fearful, if you underestimate him, you will take him lightly. If you are really quick on your feet Koreantiger, and can recognize someones movements, you can react to it, and have a 50/50 shot at avoiding, or stoping the attacker.

 

As for people saying Strikers always think they can take someone down with one shot..... i agree that that is not always the case,just like JJ fighters can ot always take someone to the ground. Can strikers have lethal kicks and punches?? Absolutely! Strikers, when trained, do not just throw or kick anywhere to the body, they SHOULD try to target a certain area, for example, areas that have pressure points, areas that are weak (IE: Sturnam, Solar Plexus, Collar Bone, Bridge of Nose, Side of Throat, Just below Adams Apple in throat, Tailbone, Floating ribs, Kidneys, etc etc)

 

Scoring a powerful blow or two in those areas can, and most of the times do take someone down.

 

Some MA's, also do not take the t ime to research other MA's, they just go off of what there instructor says or what other people tell them, or there own limited perception of what they think the MA is. That is why you have so many people saying TKD and karate suck... only because alot of people say it.... so they draw the same perception, or because they had a bad exp at a McDojo, or because they fought someone who studied that art and they weren't good. Lets face it, I can say the same thing abotu any other art.. Alot of people diss Aikido, even though at higher lvls, Aikido is AWESOME against many many other arts.

 

So, if you want to become a better fighter, I suggest you go and pick up some books on other styles and read it... heck, have a friend help you with some of the moves... to get a better understanding how the mechanics of the style works.

 

You will also hear alot of people draw on comparions about the UFC and PrideFC and how MMA guys get whooped. Ok, maybe so, but I have seen JJ guys whooped by Strikers, I have seen Wrestling guys whooped by JJ. To see one or two matches, is not valid enough to draw a line and say, This style sucks and this style rules.

 

I had a talk with 9th Degree TKD and Hapkido Grandmaster Sun Tok Choe, about this pride fighting stuff... and why he wouldnt fight in it.. just conversation, and he replied that when he watches it, there form is not refined, there sloppy. They look good, because they are fighting against other sloppy opp's. He also went on to say that he does not need to prove that he is what he is, he knows he is and so does his students. He said the time for me to show what I can do, is in a situation when my life depends on it, as the Martial Arts trained me to do... Self Defense. Truly, Martial Arts were made... mainly for Self Defense and to protect the peace and innocent.

 

(ON a side note, I have much respect for the fighters of UFC.... it takes a special kind of person to climb into the octagon and willingly take a beating lol)

 

The point of the conversation was Koreantiger, once again, when people make reference to the UFC and how there art is awesome, just look at PrideFC etc etc... take it with a grain of salt, as 9th Grandmaster Choe basically told me.

 

Nick

[JohnnyS]

Some good points there Nick.

 

One thing I will pick on however is the sloppy form in the NHB matches comment. Of course it is going to be sloppy. When you have adrenalin pumping through you, you lose your fine-motor skills, so anyone involved in a fight is going to look sloppy. People need to realise there is a difference between what just looks good and what works.

[craknek]

I know Johnny, I was just quoting Grandmaster Choe. Been in enough fights in my life to know that when you get adrealine and endorphins coursing through your body... becomes kinda hard to focus and worry about techniques lol.....