Trace the lineage of your instructor

[AndrewGreen]

It's funny that people do not do this with non-Japanese practices. For example, you'd never draw your English language family tree, trying to tie yourself back to the original speaker of English or some famous writer. Nor would anyone do this with math or science.

no, not just Japanese.

Chinese styles do it too, BJJ is really big on tracing lineage. Korean styles to some extent.

More of a martial arts problem in general then a Japanese one.

[kivikala]

I do not see the lineage thing as a problem. I see it used as an attempt to bring legitimacy to ones art/style. Japanese systems seem to be pretty big on lineage particularly any koryu arts. If one can trace the one or many instructors they have had, it does bring out in interesting picture of the influences in ones "personal" style. For instance you can see where divisions of ideology occur, you can follow basic foundation techniques and see where or when changes (if any) were made by comparing to others in similar lineage. None of it affects your current training as all that stuff is past. But if provides insight as to how you got to where "you" are in your training. And some people just like to know, just 'cuz.

Most instructors know their "lineage" and are often happy to talk about it. Verifiable or not, it's usually a good story worth listening to.

[AndrewGreen]

The problem is there are a good many people that do not have a single lineage, My training comes from many places and I would not trace myself back through any one, or even couple paths.

The second problem is it says nothing at all about the person, just where they came from. It's like going into a job interview and being asked about your family lineage to decide if you are a suitable candidate, rather then actually looking at your skills.

[Willannem]

The second problem is it says nothing at all about the person, just where they came from. It's like going into a job interview and being asked about your family lineage to decide if you are a suitable candidate, rather then actually looking at your skills.

I'd equate it to going to a job interview and them wanting to verify your education and employment history.

Lineage is important to me because I want to know that my instructor has legitimate credentials to teach and not someone that just up and decided he had enough knowledge to teach. A martial arts instructor is a profession like any other. If I use the services of a lawyer, I check out his credentials. If I seek the aid of a doctor, same credential check (in case of emergencies, I hope the hospital did the checking for me).

Many MA instructors learn the basics (sometimes even less) from a few systems and open their own school. This is fine and all but what happens after I've learn'd the basics in a few years? Personally, I want to reach advanced levels that can only be taught by someone who has learn'd the advanced levels, himself. The only way I can verify the legitimacy of the techniques I'm learning is to check instructors certifications with the system the instructor is claiming to have gain'd it from. If John Smith claims to teach So-and-So Ryu, I should be able to contact the school where John Smith claims to come from. They should have records of who they certify to teach their system.

If I claimed to teach a system, I wouldn't mind at all if someone wanted to check me out. It tells me they're serious about their training and won't be there to waste anyone's time. You don't have to ask for lineage to be serious but when someone checks, it is a good sign they are serious.

Some people could care less about lineage. More power to 'em. Personally, I do. Along with a lineage check, I make sure I vibe with the instructor. Lineage isn't everything.

[Meguro]

Some people could care less about lineage. More power to 'em. Personally, I do. Along with a lineage check, I make sure I vibe with the instructor. Lineage isn't everything.

Very sensible. The consumer has a right to know, unless you're the type of consumer who believes that the street corner bought Rolex is equivalent to the real deal.

[angus88]

I think the relevance of lineage is purely individual. Personally, I like the idea of learning a "pure" system - one in which you can trace the roots of instruction directly back to the founder.

And I think lineage is still maintained by counting only head instructors, if instruction within the school is consistent. For instance, people trace Sekichi Toguchi directly to Chojun Miyagi, but in all actuality, his initial instruction was from Seko Higa. But since Higa was teaching Miyagi's style exactly (as Miyagi's senior student), and Miyagi had a hand in the teaching as well, the line is drawn directly to Miyagi, oftentimes by-passing Higa for lineage purposes.

But believe it or not, I can also understand why someone might not care about lineage. Lineage means nothing if the instruction passed down is ignored or changed irreparably. And if all you care about is learning to fight, there's plenty of people that are qualified to teach you how to fight with no formal training at all.

For me, I simply joined a school that impressed me. From black belt on down I was blown away at the consistent discipline, the training, the technique - everything. It just happened to have really well documented lineage.

[orion82698]

That's awesome. I truely believe I will find a school like that. It's improtant to me that I know my instructor isn't "rex kwon do". You're right. If the instructors before pasted down wrong matrial, then it's worthless. I usually call around 2-3 schools a day, and ask what style, how much, and who they trained under. I can usually tell by the sound of their voice, or if they avoid the price converstation.

One converstation:

Q: What style Karate do you teach?

A: Kempo, which is one of the best

Q: Who did you train under?

A: (Some name I have never heard of, but not surprising)

Q: How much do you charge, and is there a contract?

A: So tell me a little about yourself, why do you want to take up Karate?

He beat around the bush for a while, until I finally asked him the same question again. He told me to stop by and we could dicuss it further. I told that I wasn't going to come by until he told me if there was a contract or not, and if the price was reasonable. He then said, that they don't discuss price over the phone, they want people to get the experiance first. I laughed, said thank you for your time, and hung up.

[24fightingchickens]

Some people could care less about lineage. More power to 'em. Personally, I do. Along with a lineage check, I make sure I vibe with the instructor. Lineage isn't everything.

Very sensible. The consumer has a right to know, unless you're the type of consumer who believes that the street corner bought Rolex is equivalent to the real deal.

The problem with this thinking, imo, is that there is no such thing as an objective "good" instructor or "authentic" martial art. It's not like hiring a lawyer, where you know whether or not he passed the bar exam given by the state and whether or not he wins his cases. In the case of a martial artist, all you can verify is that he spent time around another person who spent time around another person.

That doesn't actually mean anything at all, especially in an industry where credentials are largely meaningless social engineering and personal benchmarking - not objective realization of standards.

[24fightingchickens]

He then said, that they don't discuss price over the phone, they want people to get the experiance first. I laughed, said thank you for your time, and hung up.

But that doesn't have anything to do with lineage at all. It's more of a case of just "piling on". His refusal to discuss price over the phone revealed he is a salesman and not interested in straight up pricing for his services. That's good enough reason not to train with him. Not knowing his instructor is not useful information. I've met plenty of clowns with very famous instructors.

The value of lineage is little more than a martial arts myth, imo.

[liquidkudzu]

I don't think it is important. I wrote an article a long time ago called "Shotokan Family Treehouse" in which I decried the common practice amongst karate practitioners of trying to draw geneaology charts of their karate heritage as if they only had one instructor each. Myself, I have learned karate from all sorts of sources, certainly not from one man. My instructor is not my biological relative, they are just one of many, many people I have learned millions of lessons from that built up to my ability to teach karate. Citing one person would be pointless and silly, crediting one man with all of that work? No one deserves that credit.

24FC, do you still have that article available for me to read somehow?

lk