Technique or strength?

[White Warlock]

And don't get me wrong. I'm no slouch. I'm rather strong, but i'm also plenty stronger than i look...

Why do people always assume strength = big? One of the strongest powerlifters I know of only weighs 135lbs...

I don't believe i presented that position. I, for example, am only 185 lbs, yet i presented myself as 'rather strong.'

and when you have both, you have a distinct trump card.

And i did not argue that. The discussion has been about strength over technique, not about strength and technique over technique alone.

As to the tangent about weight classes... frankly, i don't like them. You just stated above an opposition to the assumption of strength = big, so in some ways i'm thinking you may agree with my thoughts on this.

I used to do quite well against my fellow wrestlers and boxers, who were of the same training level and competitive performance, but significantly larger. In high school, i was in the wee pack and later in college i got up to 135 lbs, while i practiced with 245 lb+. Some techniques were not as effective, while others were far easier to perform. As well, i would be all over the place, while they felt more like stationary objects.

Add to this, the UFCs... before weight classes. In the 'majority' of cases, the lower weighted person would win the confrontation. Something to think about. Size/weight, as you presented, does not equate to strength, nor to skill. Then again, strength does not equate to size/weight, nor to skill. And, once again, skill does not equate to strength, size, nor weight.

Now, in combination... a skilled assailant who is strong and large.... well, why is it that sumo wrestlers do not fare well in MMA competitions? Skills not applicable to the competition... or is it that size/weight, and possibly even strength, hampers application of skills?

Note: in truth, i do not believe strength hampers skills, but it can definitely hamper the 'development' of skills. At least the internally-oriented ones, which i think are far more important than the external.

[White Warlock]

i would have to disagree, some huge muscular guys, theyre bodies are so well built that they can withstand a couple of blows with baseball bats, so the only tactic that would be useful is a pressure point hit

Only in the movies... only in the movies. Oh, and i don't think the skull has any muscles that function as padding against a baseball bat.

[lgm]

Weight and strength matter when you are of the same skill level.

Strength is only positively correlated with weight or mass if the weight is mainly that of muscles than fat. A fat fighter with the same weight as a muscle-bound fighter is no match in strength to the latter.

Fighting skill is not positively correlated with strength. One can be strong but not necessarily skillful in fighting. Strength though it can be developed through weight training is more likely to be natural or inborn, while fighting skill is more likely to be acquired or learned.

We cannot pit strength versus skill in predicting which will determine the result of a fight. In most fights, the two variables interact to jointly affect the result of a fight. Which variable will dominate and in what ratio in a particular fight will depend on so many intervening variables that coming up with an accurate predictive equation is at this stage of our science not yet possible. So, IMO, this question can never be resolved even if this thread will run into a million posts.

[Menjo]

but most of the posts are like that

[Ego Assassin]

I was simpley answering the question about weight classes. And size does matter if you are the same skill level and I am speaking about Professionals not hobbiests or people that think they can fight because they do martial arts.

[ravenzoom]

White Warlock wrote:

Add to this, the UFCs... before weight classes. In the 'majority' of cases, the lower weighted person would win the confrontation. Something to think about

I believe you are greatly exagerating. To say that most of the smaller guys beat the bigger guys is pushing it. It was mostly a style vs. style difference. Gracie won, not because he was small, but because his style (almost unknown at the time) dominated the scene. Tank Abbott lost often(bigger guy) because he had no style really, he just slugged it out and relied on his strength and toughness. At equal ability and technique I would always give the bigger guy a better chance of winning the fight.

[White Warlock]

White Warlock wrote:

Add to this, the UFCs... before weight classes. In the 'majority' of cases, the lower weighted person would win the confrontation. Something to think about

I believe you are greatly exagerating. To say that most of the smaller guys beat the bigger guys is pushing it. It was mostly a style vs. style difference. Gracie won, not because he was small, but because his style (almost unknown at the time) dominated the scene. Tank Abbott lost often(bigger guy) because he had no style really, he just slugged it out and relied on his strength and toughness. At equal ability and technique I would always give the bigger guy a better chance of winning the fight.

ravenzoom, i'm not exagerrating. At least not in reference to what i presented. Of the UFC fights that occurred before weight classes were instituted, most of the winners were smaller/lighter. I cannot recall the numbers, but it was presented before in either this forum or another.

And yes, there were some that entered the UFC that did not have training. But, Tank 'does' have training, he merely opted not to present his background at the onset. Also, if we were to dismiss all the fights that Royce Gracie won in those earlier UFCs, we still end up with a small-man-majority-win ratio.

When i first saw the information, i was skeptical, but then i reviewed all the tapes and came to the same numbers, and the same conclusions. It may very well be that all the 'big guys' presented in the earlier UFCs were relatively unskilled, but that was not the impression i was given.

[Menjo]

I was simpley answering the question about weight classes. And size does matter if you are the same skill level and I am speaking about Professionals not hobbiests or people that think they can fight because they do martial arts.

I see what you mean, but its funny you say it like that

[h2whoa]

I know I have said this alot but, body builders/ or generally muscly guys, have pushed their nerves closer to the skin. Striking nerve bundles is an easy way to "kill" apendages and cause great discomfort () ! It will boil down to your ability to out last your opponent, it will boil down to your training.

speaking as a big guy - I'm 5'9 and about 233, so if you imagine the way Tyson looks, that's about my size - and that is not a factor for me. pressure point / joint lock sensitivity differs from person to person. There are some that simply do not work on me. on the other hand, there are others that work extremely well.

Remember its not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog!!

so what happens when the big dog has just as much fight as you do?

LOL I am abot 5 10 and i way 130 kg about 260 pounds with about 12% body fat!! I think I am the bigger guy!!

But seriously about the saying of the dogs its just a metaphor for saying that size doesnt always count!!

I am not to proud to say that I have been beaten lots of times by smaller guys in tournaments before (I dont compete anymore). I know its different from on the streets, but at the end off the day we both trained for something and I got beat!!

Size will not help you from the small wiry guy that is destroying your feet, and the thing about the nerve bundles is a fact... I never mentioned anything like people had the same threshold for pain. However if you are struck in the obscure areas I am talking about, you may not feel it but the damage is still being done!!

[yamesu]

IMHO, the most important thing in fighting is:

Distance and Timing,

Distance and Timing,

Distance and Timing.

Im only 5'11", built more like a gymnast than a weightlifter, but i can drop guys a LOT bigger than me just by positioning myself correctly.

Distance and Timing.