shorin ryu and goju ryu

[thesasafras]

has anyone else noticed the differences of these styles? Since ive been studying both for a long time now ive noticed how shorin ryu in general is quicker than Goju ryu, and has less power. then looking at the O-sensi's of each, Chojun Miyagi is a big man, while Chotoku Kyan is a smaller man. i notice that what the O-sensi's were like makes a big difference in there styles. anyone else?

[P.A.L]

Miyagi got his karate from Higaonna who was not a big man and shorin ryu comes mostly from Matsumura who was not a man with small posture.

[orion82698]

So if you really want to look at it, Gojo-Ryu is Shorei-Ryu, correct?

[shogeri]

Here is some common knowledge history - known and found all over the place, including the web:

"Okinawa, Being at the crossroads of major trading routes, its significance as a "resting spot" was first discovered by the Japanese. It later developed as a trade center for southeastern Asia, trading with Japan, China, Indo China, Thailand, Malaysia, Borneo and the Philippines. In its earliest stages, the martial art known as "karate" was an indigenous form of closed fist fighting which was developed in Okinawa and called Te, or 'hand'. Weapons bans, imposed on the Okinawans at various points in their history, encouraged the refinement of empty-hand techniques and, for this reason, was trained in secret until modern times. Further refinement came with the influence of other martial arts brought by nobles and trade merchants to the island.

 

Te continued to develop over the years, primarily in three Okinawan cities: Shuri, Naha and Tomari. Each of these towns was a centre to a different sect of society: kings and nobles, merchants and business people, and farmers and fishermen, respectively. For this reason, different forms of self-defense developed within each city and subsequently became known as Shuri-te, Naha-te and Tomari-te. Collectively they were called Okinawa-Te or Tode, 'Chinese hand'. Gradually, karate was divided into two main groups: Shorin-ryu which developed around Shuri and Tomari and Shorei-ryu which came from the Naha area. "It is important to note, however, that the towns of Shuri, Tomari, Naha are only a few miles apart, and that the differences between their arts were essentially ones of emphasis, not of kind. Beneath these surface differences, both the methods and aims of all Okinawan karate are one in the same" (Howard, 1991). Gichin Funakoshi goes further to suggest that these two styles were developed based on different physical requirements. Shorin-ryu was quick and linear with natural breathing while Shorei-ryu emphasized steady, rooted movements with breathing in synchrony with each movement. Interestingly, this concept of two basic styles also exist in kung-fu with a similar division of characteristics. "

"In Okinawa, for a long time, using any kinds of weapons was prohibited because of a policy of prohibiting weapons. For that reason, they had to invent toshukuken, the way to fight without a weapon. This was especially true in the beginning of the 17th century since it was thought that fighting martial arts, referring to Chinese kempo, was invented among Ryukyu [Okinawa] samurai because their weapons were banned. In Okinawa, before it was called karate, it had two names, one was Naha-te and the other was Shuri-te.

 

These are the names of regions. The source of present day styles are these two te. Naha-te was invented by Tono [Higaonna] Kanryo Shihan, who went to Fuku-ken-sho [also Fuken-sho, Fujian Province] in China and learned Chinese kempo, which was combined with Naha-te and named Shorei-ryu.

 

Shuri-te was represented by Matsumura Soken Shihan. It has been separated as Matsu-Toukan-ryu, Shito-ryu, and Wado-ryu. The history of Goju-ryu begins with Miyagi Chojun Shihan who is an unparalleled saint [fuseishutsu no kensei].

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Separate Notes:

Naha-Te ultimately became known as Shorei Ryu (inspirational style) and evolved into the Goju Ryu and Uechi Ryu styles of modern karate. The use of soft circlular blocks in Goju and Uechi Ryu make them similar although Uechi Ryu Shows a much stronger Chinese influence.

Shorin-ryu was quick and linear with natural breathing while Shorei-ryu emphasized steady, rooted movements with breathing in synchrony with each movement.

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Miyagi Shihan was born in Meiji era 20 [1888] to a famous house in Naha, Okinawa. He had practiced karate since he was 14-years old with Tono Kanryo Shihan. In Meiji 36 [1904], when he was 16 years old, he was ordered to go to Fuku-ken-sho, China, and practiced Chinese kempo.

 

In China, Miyagi received rough and strict training. At the same time he studied theory from old books. After he came back from China, he compared Chinese kempo and Okinawa-te. Miyagi adopted his unique and effective way of breathing, which he called ikibuki [also ibuki], a way of preliminary exercise that is necessary for mastering karate-do. Ikibuki is also a supportive scientific exercise that is related to the structure of the body and its movement.

 

After that, Miyagi continued studying and reorganized both Chinese kempo and Okinawa-te's merits and added his own ideas. This is how Goju-ryu was born. Goju-ryu's name was extracted from the Bubishi, a Chinese documentary record." - https://www.fightingarts.com

"...if the kata are to be classified, then they fall broadly into either the Shorei-ryu or the Shorin-ryu. The former emphasizes primarily development of physical strength and muscular power and is impressive in its forcefulness. In contrast, the Shorin-ryu (Shorin "school") is very light and quick, with rapid motions to the front and back, which may be likened to the swift flight of the falcon. The Tekki Kata, as well as Jutte, Hangetsu, Jion, among others, belong to Shorei-ryu; whereas the Heian Kata and Bassai, Kwanku, Empi, Gankaku, and others are associated with the Shorin-ryu. - Gichin Funakoshi"

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"Despite the differences between Funakoshi Gichin's and Miyagi Chojun's definitions of internal versus external schools of boxing, Funakoshi's Shorin-ryu versus Shorei-ryu classification of karate-do kata remained unchallenged until 1938, when karate-do pioneer and Shito-ryu founder Mabuni Kenwa wrote Kobou Kenpo Karate-do Nyumon with co-author Nakasone Genwa. In it, Mabuni took issue with the Shorin-ryu versus Shorei-ryu distinction and argued that it was an inaccurate and inappropriate means of classification. Mabuni felt that Funakoshi had simply created the distinction himself with respect to kata and went so far as to show how Funakoshi had changed the designation of certain kata from Shorin-ryu to Shorei-ryu and vice versa from one publication to another (Table 1).

 

Mabuni further argued that such a means of classifying kata had never existed in Okinawa karate-do, nor was it ever used by karate-do's most famous proponents (Mabuni, 1938, p. 71). Indeed, the only tradition that had been handed down was a loose reference to two broad based systems, Shorei-ryu and Shorin-ryu. Referring to his own personal research on the Bubishi2 in his 1934 publication Seipai no Kenkyu (Research into the Kata Seipai), Mabuni suggested that the Shorei-ryu classification may have possibly come from a reference to Shoreiji-ryu and Shorinji-ryu found within the Bubishi but concluded that it was unsuitable to classify karate-do kata in such a manner. Mabuni himself opted to classify kata according to the teacher who disseminated the respective tradition. For example, Mabuni listed the kata as follows:

 

Naihanchi (1 to 3), Pinan (1 to 5), Rohai (1 to 3), Kusanku (sho/dai), Passai (sho/dai), Gojushiho, Jitte, Jin, Jion, Chinto, Chinte and Wansu were classified as Itosu lineage kata. The kata Sanchin, Tensho, Seisan, Seiunchin, Seipai, Sanseru, Suparempei, Sochin, Saifa and Kururunfa were classified as Higashionna lineage kata. Finally, Aragaki Seisho's kata, Niseishi, Unsu and Sochin were classified as Aragaki lineage kata (Mabuni, 1938, p. 74). Other works, such as Motobu Choki's Okinawa Kenpo Toudi Jutsu Kumite (1926) and Watashi no Todi Jutsu (1932) simply listed examples of the extant kata found on Okinawa (Motobu 1926, p. 6; 1932, p. 4). Despite the criticism leveled by Mabuni, the use of the terms Shorei and Shorin remained and were adopted by a later generation of karate-do practitioners and researchers. A clear example can be seen with Kyoukushin karate-do founder Oyama Masatatsu, a student of Funakoshi Gichin in his book This is Karate." - http://seinenkai.com/articles/mckenna/mckenna-kata.html

I would say reference the entire mckenna article for some more insight into this particular subject.

As a researcher of many styles, I would have to conclude that there are similarities in Goju Ryu and Shorei-Ryu in regards to certain principles. I would also say this as a person who studied up through 2nd Dan in Okinawan Goju Ryu.

In addition, the kata, and the training methods differ enough in which the two really are not comparable.

Shotokan, perhaps is better suited for comparison and contrast, as it works well with the Shorei Ryu system, and is often paired with it.

I have only studied Shotokan kata via video training. Again Shotokan has since evolved from it's Naha Te Roots, and is a creation owned by Funakoshi. It has emerged as a Japanese Martial Art with Chinese Kempo roots.

Whereas with Goju Ryu, in regards to maintaining the roots of Okinawan Te, has done so successfully.

Not sure if that helps...But I tried...

[thesasafras]

ya that helps i just was thinking about how one seems definatly faster than the other.

[P.A.L]

"I have only studied Shotokan kata via video training. Again Shotokan has since evolved from it's Naha Te Roots, and is a creation owned by Funakoshi. It has emerged as a Japanese Martial Art with Chinese Kempo roots."

this can't be correct, Funakoshi trained most of his life in okinawa under itosu , he was not exposed to Naha te enough to use it in his interpretation of karate

anyway thanks for posting these paragraphs , the section about Mabuni's arguement about katas was intersting, i don't know if i can find his book anymore.

[shogeri]

"I have only studied Shotokan kata via video training. Again Shotokan has since evolved from it's Naha Te Roots, and is a creation owned by Funakoshi. It has emerged as a Japanese Martial Art with Chinese Kempo roots. "

In regards to my own words, instead of Naha Te, I meant Shuri-Te. And of course, these are just my thoughts, as I am certainly no authority on this particular system or it's true essence.

"Funakoshi trained most of his life in Okinawa under itosu , he was not exposed to Naha te enough to use it in his interpretation of karate "

That is, in general the point I was trying to make.

However, in regards to which is quicker, in an adaptive manner to various situations, I would have to choose Goju Ryu, as within it, lies the circular methods and in-fighting techniques as implemented by Ch'uan Fa or Chinese Kempo. Whereas with Shotokan, it maintains a more linear approach to offensive and defensive maneuvering.

It is difficult to separate out the originating martial artist from the martial art itself. Culture, economics, physical stature along with strengths and weaknesses in technique and principle, the social and geological environment, and so on, all play a role in the foundation of a style in it's early stages.

From Funakoshi's past we find that: "Sensei Gichin Funakoshi was born in Shuri, Okinawa in 1868. As a young boy he was trained by two masters of that time in slightly different styles. From Master Yasutsune Azato he was instructed in "Shuri-te" and from Master Yasutsune Itosu he was instructed "Naha-te". It would be from the joining of these two styles that would one day become Shotokan Karate.

He moved to Japan to popularize the 'Way of The Empty Hand' (literal translation of "Karate") in early 1922. Established his own Dojo and began to teach Karate to many professional people in Tokyo. The J.K.A. was formed and became a centre of excellence in the Karate world. From there highly trained Instructors were sent out to different areas of the world to promote Karate. "

Again, I personally believe that Shotokan, relies heavily upon the Shuri-Te system. But it has and continually evolves, perhaps in some way, moving back to it's origin, but doing so, using many different paths.

I mention Shotokan, since it has both Shorei Ryu and Shorin Ryu roots.

But in reality we are speaking of Shorin Ryu, of which the following lineage (one of them), describes who and what:

"As a result, around the mid to late 1700's a Chinese diplomat named, Kusanku, moved to Okinawa for 6 years. During his stay he began teaching the Chinese system of Ch'uan-Fa. As these influences became introduced into the different local martial arts, they gradually became known as Tode (or Chinese Hand). By the 1800's these styles were again re-named. Shuri and Tomari-Te formed the basis for Okinawan Sho Rin Ryu, while Naha-Te formed Goju Ryu and Uechi Ryu.

Although Kusanku is often believed to be a culmination of different Chinese officers, he is often referred to as one person. As is recorded, Tode Sakugawa began studying under Kusanku-sensei. The teachings of Kusanku enabled Sakugawa to combine the essence of both Te and Chinese Boxing principles. These principles form the basis of modern day Shorin Ryu."

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The following is a record of the lineage of Shorin Ryu Karatedo. At least one of them. Each master featured was the direct instructor of the next. Listed art the names of the kata's each instructor was either known for or even introduced into the system.

"On the left side is the master, and on the right side is their contribution.

Kusanku = Kusanku Kata

Tode Sakugawa = Passai Kata

Sokon "Bushi" Matsumura = Passai Kata & Chinto

Ankoh Yasutsune Itosu = 5 Pinan Kata, Naihanchi Nidan, Naihanchi Sandan, Passai Sho, Passai Dai, Kusanku Sho, Kusanku Dai.

Itosu-sensei was such an incredible instructor, that in 1903, he became the first martial artist to introduce karate-do into the public schools of Okinawa. His students include Gichin Funakoshi-sensei. It was not until the late 1800's that Funakoshi-Sensei termed the essence of Te as "Karate-Do" meaning, "The Way of the Empty Hand." Funakoshi-sensei later founded ShotoKan Karate.

Chosin Chibana = Gojushiho Kata

As Sho Rin Ryu began to branch further and further, and other styles evolved from Itosu-sensei's karate. An attempt was made by one of Itosu-sensei's students to preserve his instructors teachings. Itosu-sensei's most loyal and dedicated student, Chosin Chibana-sensei, renamed the style Kobayshi-Ryu (Shorin Ryu - "Young Forest Style") to indicate that he taught Itosu-sensei's original style.

Shuguro Nakazato = Shorin Ryu Shorin Kan

Chibana-sensei's most notable student, Shuguro Nakazato-sensei, who became the head of Shorin Ryu-Shorin Kan branch of Kobayashi. Chibana-sensei's other most notable student, Katsuya Miyahira-sensei, became the head of Shorin Ryu-Shido Kan branch of Kobayashi

Nakazato-sensei first began training in Shito Ryu Karate-do (1935-40), under Seiichi Iju-sensei.

While training in Shito Ryu, Nakazato-sensei also began training in Kobudo, under Seiro Tonaki-sensei (from 1936-40).

Nakazato-sensei then entered the Japanese Army, it was during this time that he taught bayonet techniques.

By the end of World War II, Nakazato-sensei returned to Okinawa, and became a disciple of Chibana-sensei.

In 1951 Nakazato-sensei opened a dojo together with Chibana-sensei, naming it Chibana Dai Ichi Dojo.

Then in 1955, he opened the Sho Rin Kan dojo, which he presently operates.

Until 1958, Nakazato trained in bojitsu under Tonaki-sensei's son, Masami Chinen-sensei, of the now famed Yamani-Chinen Ryu Bojitsu style.

Nakazato-sensei believed that Chibana-sensei had taught Anko Itosu-sensei's style without altering it. However, because Itosu-sensei's style had little kumite, Nakazato-sensei took it upon himself to add the Kihon and Fukyu kata.

Tadashi Yamashita Hanshi

Sensei Tadashi Yamashita has dedicated over 40 years of his life to the practice Okinawan Karatedo and Kobudo. A highly respected man in all circles of the martial arts, Yamashita-Sensei is sought after for karatedo and kobudo seminars from all over the world. He currently retains the rank of ninth degree black belt in both karatedo and kobudo. Sensei is also the President and Director of U.S. Shorin-Ryu Karate Association, and U.S.A. President of the Zen Okinawan Kobudo Association.

Yamashita-sensei has traveled as far as South America and regularly visits Greece. Sensei also keeps a close connection with his birthplace of Japan and Okinawa. Not only is Yamashita-Sensei recognized as a leading authority in the martial arts, but his accomplishments also include his study with several notable high ranking masters. These masters include the late Chibana Chosin of Shorin Ryu, and Shuguro Nakazato founder of the Shorin Ryu Shorin Kan. As well as trained directly under the late Shinpo Matayoshi, founder of the Zen Okinawan Kobudo Renmei.

Well known for his explosive open hand techniques, Sensei combines many progressive fighting tactics with traditional aspects of karatedo, thus resulting in a devastating fighting system. Sensei's dynamic fighting system known as "Suikendo," translates to, "fist flowing like water." This non stopping flowing system of fighting, allows the karateka to simultaneously block and strike his opponent with blinding speed and accuracy. "

- From http://yamashitakarate.com/YamashitaSensei.htm#Hanshi%20Yamashita

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Here is an awesome link that allows you to download many of the kata we are speaking of. They are not compressed, however, thus are large in size.

http://web1.38231.vs.webtropia.com/indexen.html

On this site above, there is a kata called Fukyūgata Ni, which holds many similarities to our kata called Gekisai Kata Dai Ni. Which was a Green Belt level kata.

In sum, to learn both Shorin Ryu, and Goju Ryu, in a sense one would have the complete Okinawan Te or Te-Do system from which to pull a vast amount of resources from. Perhaps Matsubayashi Ryu would be an answer to this???

There is also one called Chinto, of which our higher Black Belts learned as well.

Using this site, which I just found, I now see the many similarities at the higher level.

With the below definition of Goju Ryu, we get further insight into it's principle core:

"Goju Ryu Karatedo is said to display the oldest martial arts traditions and movements. The system is based on the concept of hard (go) and soft (ju), always in consistent harmony one equalizing the other. The art combines traditional Okinawan techniques with both internal and external Chinese principles. The soft (ju), internal Chinese style concentrates upon circular movements and the development of chi (vital energy), while external, hard (go) principle rely upon physical strength. The combination gives Goju Ryu its beauty, disciplined movements, grace, and flowing form. Anyone who believes that Goju Ryu is merely a beautiful style with little of the art of defense, he need only watch two Goju Ryu practitioners square off in sparring (kumite) where Goju-ryu is a close-range, infighting system that concentrates on efficiency of movements. " - http://www.gojuryu.neu.edu/karate.html

Also,

"The use of "tensho" or "soft" techniques in Goju-ryu reveals an obvious influence from the Fukien White Crane style (known as "Fujian Bai Er" in Chinese). These are normally taught at the Brown belt to Sempai level of training." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goju-Ryu

Goju Ryu, uses many in-close circular techniques, that employ trapping, locking, and or control. Another Ch'uan Fa rooted principle.

The following is from wikipedia, and I agree that Shorin Ryu has many branches, more so in some respects than Goju Ryu has, but I am not 100 percent positive on that statement.

"Shorin-ryu is one of the major modern Okinawan martial arts. Said to have been founded by Sokon Matsumura during the 1800s, Shorin-ryu combines elements of the traditional Okinawan fighting styles Shuri-te and Tomari-te. Shorin-ryu is widely considered to be one of the two major modern styles of Okinawan karate, along with Goju-ryu, which is rooted in the other traditional Okinawan style, Naha-te.

Sokon Matsumura was a renowned warrior of his time; he has been called the Miyamoto Musashi of Okinawa. However, while he is often referred to as the "founder" of Shorin-ryu, he did not invent all the components the style, and perhaps didn't ever call it "Shorin-ryu" himself. It is quite possible that he synthesized his knowledge of Okinawan arts with Chinese fighting styles that he learned on his travels and taught it as a coherent system to some eager students, who subsequently refined it, labeled it, and passed it on. (Highlighting Shorin-ryu's Chinese heritage is the fact that "Shorin" is the Japanese pronunciation of the Chinese, "Shaolin"; "ryu" means "way", or "style".)

Along with being a style on its own, Shorin-ryu is also perhaps the most influential single ancestor of modern Japanese karate. One of Matsumura's best-known students, Anko (or "Ankoh") Itosu became a great practitioner and teacher of Okinawan karate and developed the five Pinan kata, which are now taught not only in Shorin-ryu, but also in a wide variety of Okinawan, Japanese and derived martial arts. It is also believed by some that the first two Pinan kata were actually developed by Matsumura and the last three by Itosu. In addition, Itosu and another student of Matsumura's named Anko Azato were among the primary influences on a fellow Okinawan named Gichin Funakoshi. Funakoshi introduced his Okinawan martial arts to mainland Japan in 1922, and in subsequent decades was instrumental in developing what he termed simply "karate" or "karate-do" as a popular Japanese sport and art. (The style Funakoshi taught on mainland Japan is now called Shotokan karate.)

Shorin-ryu is generally characterized by natural breathing, natural (narrow, high) stances, and direct -- rather than circular -- movements. Shorin-ryu practitioners will say that deep stances are not important for powerful moves, and that only correct motion matters. In fact, Okinawan traditionalists often claim that deep, wide stances are a development of Japanese-styled karate, and useful only for show.

There is not now, and perhaps has never been, a single unified school of "Shorin-ryu," although many dojos use the term for simplicity's sake. Some of the best known schools of Shorin-ryu include Shobayashi, Matsumura Orthodox Shorin-ryu, Kobayashi Shorin-ryu (Shorinkan), and Matsubayashi-ryu, but there are many others, most with long and distinguished histories that trace back to Matsumura and his students." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shorin-Ryu

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Anything in quotes is from the another site. The other words are what I believe or have read.

Thus, just as Shaolin Kung Fu, has it's own circular and linear styles, so too does Okinawan Karate.

Now that was alot to soak in...I just couldn't stop. Enjoy!