Bruce Lee...Greatest fighter?

[Menjo]

I think he was a great martil artist, but i dont think in my mind there was ever or will be a greatest martial artist

[Willannem]

I'd say he was a great fighter who made great things happen for martial arts.

I wouldn't. Great things were already happening in the martial arts. He just ended up getting credit for a lot of it.

I'm sure there were great things already happening when he burst onto the scene but there are countless individuals who were introduced to the martial arts though his movies. Several of them are now masters, preserving and teaching martial arts thoughout the world. I'd call that a great thing.

I'm sorry, but if his accomplishments are going to be centered on his 'screen' efforts and the ensuing 'media' exploitation of the arts, i just don't think that's such a good thing. A lot of people entered into the martial arts because they saw him on screen?

The growth and change of the arts is due to individuals within the arts that look beyond idols, and instead into themselves and into their arts. Granted, there are many people who found idols from different mediums, but i can't readily give Bruce Lee credit for the 'horrible' influx of wannabe martial artists that occurred in the 70's Bruce Lee era (as some people like to call it). In that time, a lot of fakers jumped into the scene, claiming to have belts and opening up schools with a modicum of legitimate background. Worse, however, were the many persons entering the martial arts for the 'wrong' reasons.

The movies didn't help the martial arts... it hurt it. Mass consumption is for the masses, and that's what movies and other network-products target. As to Bruce's movies as a whole, they were mostly geared towards revenge and other 'unhealthy' MA ventures, but common-theme movie ventures.

I also don't give credit to the times. It was at that time recognized there was an interest in Asian martial arts. It was the media moguls that capitalized on Bruce Lee and other martial artists of the time, because they noted the consumer interests... and went into it for the money.

Bruce Lee found’d Jeet Kune Do. Are you willing to dismiss the entire system as fill’d with “wannabe martial artists” along with the untold number of individuals he inspired to learn martial arts? For whatever reason people entered into the martial arts arena, the ones that persisted throughout the years aren’t to be considered as wannabes. We all know that training weeds out those who aren’t in it for the love.

If you only choose to look at the negative aspects of his movies, that’s a choice. It’s an undeniable fact that he inspired many “true” martial artists. If it were not for Bruce Lee’s movies, he wouldn’t have been able to draw in nearly as many people, good or bad. Even one good martial artist inspired by Bruce Lee is a great thing.

Had it not been Bruce Lee, it would have been someone else...

That may be true but Bruce Lee did it…”someone else” didn’t.

[White Warlock]

Well, obviously this is a touchy subject, but i've never been one to walk on eggshells. Nonetheless i hope that what i have to say won't be misconstrued as my wanting to debate merely for the sake of debate. As always, i try to present information and insight.

Bruce Lee found’d Jeet Kune Do.

Jkd is not a system, it's an approach. Jun fan do is a system and it was used as a base for instructing the 'concepts' associated with jkd. This, unfortunately, has presented much confusion as to what jkd is, or was.

Are you willing to dismiss the entire system as fill’d with “wannabe martial artists” along with the untold number of individuals he inspired to learn martial arts?

The study of jkd has, in truth, very few 'legitimate' followers. Many people tout having studied jkd, but few actually know what it means and fewer have had any formal training.

As to persons being inspired, as i noted earlier... he was presented to the mainstream by people who saw profit. There were plenty of martial art movies being made in Hong Kong, and a few being made in Japan. It was pretty much a 'pick this' or 'pick that' when it came to picking movies to present in the U.S., but Bruce had an edge in the business. He was a child actor and had the luck to link up with a producer as one of his students. This guy gave him the connections to Hollywood and he was later able to angle his HK movies into the U.S. As well as i know, he never made a movie for Hollywood (supporting actor bits for the Green Hornet series doesn't count).

As to being an inspiration, yes... many people who needed an idol found him to be inspiring, but in many the wrong way. He presented, on screen, an overly confident, arrogant, yet otherwise skilled martial artist. The themes to his movies were almost always 'revenge-based,' which is not a 'good' motive for studying the arts.

As to those who found him to be an idol and then became accomplished martial artists... there are no statistics on this, but i gather there are very very few. A lot of people tried the martial arts, and failed. Only a select few succeed in continuing their studies on any topic and actually become accomplished at anything in life. It is not the popularity of such things that make masters, but individuals who make themselves.

For whatever reason people entered into the martial arts arena, the ones that persisted throughout the years aren’t to be considered as wannabes.

Taking things out of context is not the way i prefer to have a discussion. When i stated this, it was specifically about the 70's and the influence movies had on a multitude of persons to emulate by action, not by effort. Wannabes exist in everything and in all fields.

We all know that training weeds out those who aren’t in it for the love.

Which pretty much wipes almost 'everyone' that was 'inspired' by movies to enter the arts. Look, i entered the arts on my own, without ever seeing a Bruce Lee movie. I know plenty of longtime practitioners that followed the same route. Indeed, i have found no longtime practitioners that were inspired to join the arts because of Bruce Lee's onscreen appearance.

If you only choose to look at the negative aspects of his movies, that’s a choice. It’s an undeniable fact that he inspired many “true” martial artists.

I contest this. It is not a fact, nor do i believe it to be true.

If it were not for Bruce Lee’s movies, he wouldn’t have been able to draw in nearly as many people, good or bad. Even one good martial artist inspired by Bruce Lee is a great thing.

Martial movies, as a whole, catch peoples attention. But it is through the flash and fancy that people are intrigued. And, when it comes right down to it, 'real' martial arts isn't flash and fancy. Those inspired by the movies to enter the arts are often sorely disappointed with the products presented.

It takes work to become an accomplished student of the arts. Movies don't present that, they only present the end product... the flash. It looks great but is unpalatable to the vast majority of viewers.

I give Bruce Lee no more credit than i would any other movie-martial artist. Yes, they inspire some people to join the arts. Yes, a thimble-full of them actually rise above black belt. But, it is what is within them that makes them who they are... not the movie credits. What motivates a person to walk into that door... that's recruiting. It's not instruction and it doesn't develop the martial artist.

In fact, it is the instructors that develop the martial artists... and instead, the limelighters get the credit. Bruce Lee was a limelighter.

That may be true but Bruce Lee did it…”someone else” didn’t.

Plenty of persons have touched the screen, but few have touched the dojo, and in turn, the student. It is the instructors, the trainers, the educators that deserve credit... not the movie stars.

[Menjo]

longest non-article post ever .

[White Warlock]

Something i wrote earlier that is somewhat relevant to these discussions -

http://www.karateforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=22089&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=46

[shogeri]

Bruce Lee's systemic approach was founded upon the principles of the martial arts.

He did not want people to study beneath a system with prearranged methods, and millions of techniques.

He taught people how to be adaptive fighters, not robots.

His goal was not to have obedient little paupers, waiting for their turn at the helm come promotion time into the black belt hall of fame.

He was a great fighter. But this was also his greatest weakness in many ways.

I respect him for the direction he gave to many.

[Menjo]

interesting, what weaknesses do you find in him?

[SatyagrahaKF]

A lot of good opinions here guys. I personally agree with Willannem that his inspiring of people to train in the martial arts was not necessarily a bad thing. I have always found his teachings of the intercepting fist interesting, and he has some of the best martial arts philosophy (be like water...). Ah yes...

[White Warlock]

Well, as i stated in an earlier post, on another thread, nothing he said was actually new... it was merely rehashed and presented to an ignorant audience as if it were his ideas.

Many attribute things to Bruce Lee, because it came out of his mouth, or because it is noted in one of his writings... but he is not the originator of such thoughts, nor even of such words. They can be found in books like Sun Tzu's Art of War, thought to have been written before 400 b.c. which, i'm sure you would agree, clearly predates Bruce Lee.

In section six, parts 27-29 of The Art of War, Sun Tzu writes:

• 27. Now an army may be likened to water, for just as flowing water avoids the heights and hastens to the lowlands, so an army avoids strength and strikes weakness.
   
  28. And as water shapes its flow in accordance with the ground, so an army manages its victory in accordance with the situation of the enemy.
   
  29. And as water has no constant form, there are in war no constant conditions.

[shogeri]

The primary weakness I refer to is that he short-changed many effective styles, since many times, he only scratched the surface through academic research.

Dan Inosanto, has noted that Bruce was an awesome fighter, and great teacher, with a natural gift, but that his over-eagerness (or need) to prove that the Martial Arts are simple and not complex, sometimes overcame him, and he oversimplified other systems as well.

A secondary weakness, was that he was just a man, and, any fighter of equal caliber, could have beat Him under the proper conditions (or vice versa).

Albeit, shoulda, coulda woulda...Don't mean much in real life scenarios.

Some tidbit thoughts...