BJJ vs Judo

[elbows_and_knees]

bjj has turned too much into a sport martial art,that's one aspect that I dislike about it.

muay thai is also a sport. the fact that it is a sport doesn't really discount it in any way.

[elbows_and_knees]

Kano was a JuJitsu master and took throws and some ground work to create judo for sport not the other way around. The Gracies tested Jiu Jitsu in the streets of Brasil and against other styles in Brasil. Are we repeating what we've heard or are we researching this stuff for ourselves.

To find the truth we must crossreference. The truth is consistant and never changes.

whoa... you are confusing two different styles. jujutsu is what kano studied. It is a japanese style of combat. kano trained three different jujutsu styles and combined aspects of them to create his judo.

Fast forward- judo was shown to the gracies who wanted some sort of distinction from judo, as helio had modified his art to focus mainly on groundwork and submssion. Consequently, they named their style jiu jitsu - an improper romanization of 'jujutsu'.

[Ego Assassin]

On the first part thank you for repeating what I said as if you said something different. And on the second who do you train under because you can check my lineage directly. There's me, Luiz Palhares, Rickson Gracie, Helio Gracie, Carlos Gracie and Count Mitsuyo Maeda. Maeda was a former Jujitsu Champion. And Kano subtracted more than he combined.

You can check instructor lineage on www. bjj.org

[shogeri]

Both BJJ and Judo are derived from jujitsu/jujutsu.

They are both submission based styles.

And generally, their practitioners would not fair well against multiple opponents of 4 or more, unless such practitioner had been doing that style for a while, and had trained for such situations.

However, from what I have learned, most BJJ practitioners are mixed Martial Artists, learning the striking arts as well as the throws, joint-locks, and takedowns.

If judoka are trained under olympic rules, then the following is drilled into their heads:

"Judo has two main elements, the sporting skills of attack and defense and the culture of the sport through, which these skills are performed. The moral code of Judo is politeness, courage, sincerity, self-control, honour, modesty, friendship and respect. In Judo competition, a judoka can be disqualified for deliberately hurting their opponent."

Sporting defense????

Is this likened to TKD tournaments,where a point is awarded, even when a strike is not landed, but shows control???

Also, judo weighs heavily on the throw, according to the IJF, "When ippon is scored, the fight is over. The referee annouces ippon when in his opinion an applied technique corresponds to the following criteria :

(a) when a contestant, in a controlled movement, throws the other contestant largely on his back with considerable force and speed

(b) when a contestant holds with osaekomi waza (grappling technique) the other contestant who is unable to get away for 25 seconds after the announcement of osaekomi

© when a contestant gives up by tapping twice or more with his hand or foot or says maitta generally as a result of a, shime waza (strangling technique) or kansetsu waza (armlock technique)

(d) when a contestant is incapacitated by a shime waza or kansetsu waza"

If this is the case, then this brings BJJ up a notch closer to Traditional Jujutsu, which by far, is more practical and dangerous being both a striking, kicking, lock, throw, and submission style.

Having practiced Aikijutsu, and Okinawan Jujutsu, I would have to say that background helps me understand just what is more effective on the street.

That is why I voted for BJJ.

Opinions vary, and of course I have been proved wrong in many things.

[Ego Assassin]

Brazilian Jiu Jitsu Is only called that by americans in Brasil it is simply Jiu Jitsu because this is exactly what it is.

[White Warlock]

EA, i received my information directly from the lips of Helio Gracie and Rorion Gracie, via videotape. I also obtained this information from countless sources, most of which present slight variations on the same theme.

Suffice it to say, the foundation art of bjj was Jigoro Kano's judo, not ju-jutsu. Do u wish me to provide reference data?

[Goju_boi]

So if the Gracies made their style from Judo,why would they call it Ju-Jutsu?

[shogeri]

This is straight from a BJJ site:

"In the mid-1800's in Japan, there were a large number of styles ("ryu") of jiu-jitsu (sometimes spelled "jujitsu"). Techniques varied between ryu, but generally included all manner of unarmed combat (strikes, throws, locks, chokes, wrestling, etc.) and occasionally some weapons training. One young but skilled master of a number of jiu-jitsu styles, Jigoro Kano, founded his own ryu and created the martial art Judo (aka Kano-ryu jiu-jitsu) in the 1880's. One of Kano's primary insights was to include full-power practice against resisting, competent opponents, rather than solely rely on the partner practice that was much more common at the time.

 

One of Kano's students was Mitsuo Maeda, who was also known as Count Koma ("Count of Combat"). Maeda emigrated to Brazil in 1914. He was helped a great deal by the Brazilian politician Gastão Gracie, whose father George Gracie had emigrated to Brazil himself from Scotland. In gratitude for the assistance, Maeda taught jiu-jitsu to Gastao's son Carlos Gracie. Carlos in turn taught his brothers Osvaldo, Gastão Jr., Jorge, and Helio.

 

In 1925, Carlos and his brothers opened their first jiu-jitsu academy, and Gracie Jiu-Jitsu was born in Brazil.

 

At this point, the base of techniques in BJJ was similar to those in Kano's Judo academy in Japan. As the years progressed, however, the brothers (notably Carlos and Helio) and their students refined their art via brutal no-rules fights, both in public challenges and on the street. Particularly notable was their willingness to fight outside of weight categories, permitting a skilled small fighter to attempt to defeat a much larger opponent.

 

They began to concentrate more and more on submission ground fighting, especially utilizing the guard position. This allowed a weaker man to defend against a stronger one, bide his time, and eventually emerge victorious.

 

In the 1970's, the undisputed jiu-jitsu champion in Brazil was Rolls Gracie. He had taken the techniques of jiu-jitsu to a new level. Although he was not a large man, his ability to apply leverage using all of his limbs was unprecedented. At this time the techniques of the open guard and its variants (spider guard, butterfly guard) became a part of BJJ. Rolls also developed the first point system for jiu-jitsu only competition. The competitions required wearing a gi, awarded points (but not total victories) for throws and takedowns, and awarded other points for achieving different ground positions (such as passing an opponent's guard). After Rolls' death in a hang-gliding accident, Rickson Gracie became the undisputed (and undefeated!) champion, a legend throughout Brazil and much of the world. He has been the exemplar of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu technique for the last two decades, since the early 1980's, in both jiu-jitsu competition and no-rules MMA competition.

 

Jiu-jitsu techniques have continued to evolve as the art is constantly tested in both arenas. For example, in the 1990's Roberto "Gordo" Correa, a BJJ black belt, injured one of his knees, and to protect his leg he spent a lot of practice time in the half-guard position. When he returned to high-level jiu-jitsu competition, he had the best half-guard technique in the world. A position that had been thought of as a temporary stopping point, or perhaps a defensive-only position, suddenly acquired a new complexity that rapidly spread throughout the art.

 

In the early 1990's, Rorion Gracie moved from Brazil to Los Angeles. He wished to show the world how well the Gracie art of jiu-jitsu worked. In Brazil, no-rules Mixed Martial Art (MMA) contests (known as "vale tudo") had been popular since Carlos Gracie first opened his academy in 1925, but in the world at large most martial arts competition was internal to a single style, using the specialized rules of that style's practice.

 

Rorion and Art Davie conceived of the Ultimate Fighting Championship. This was a series of pay-per-view television events in the United States that began in 1993. They pitted experts of different martial arts styles against each other in an environment with very few rules, in an attempt to see what techniques "really worked" when put under pressure. Rorion also entered his brother Royce Gracie, an expert in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, as one of the contestants.

 

Royce dominated the first years of the UFC against all comers, amassing eleven victories with no fighting losses. At one event he defeated four different fighters in one night. This, from a fighter that was smaller than most of the others (at 170 lbs, in an event with no weight classes), looked thin and scrawny, and used techniques that most observers, even experienced martial artists, didn't understand.

 

In hindsight, much of Royce's success was due to the fact that he understood very well (and had trained to defend against) the techniques that his opponents would use, whereas they often had no idea what he was doing to them. In addition, the ground fighting strategy and techniques of BJJ are among the most sophisticated in the world. Besides the immediate impact of an explosion of interest in BJJ across the world (particularly in the US and Japan), the lasting impact of Royce's early UFC dominance is that almost every successful MMA fighter now includes BJJ as a significant portion of their training.

 

Description:

 

Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is primarily a ground-fighting art. Most techniques involve both fighters on the mat. There is a heavy emphasis on positional strategy, which is about which fighter is on top, and where each person's legs are. Positions are stable situations, from which a large variety of techniques are available to both fighters.

 

The primary positions include:

 

Guard: The person applying the guard is on the bottom with his back on the ground; his legs are wrapped around his opponent's hips (who is said to be "in the guard").

 

Side control: Chest-on-chest but without the legs being entangled.

 

Mount: On top of his opponent (who "is mounted"), sitting on his chest, with one leg on either side of his torso.

 

Back mount: Behind his opponent, with his feet hooked around his opponent's hips and upper thighs.

 

Specific techniques taught are designed either to improve one's position (for example, to "pass the guard", by going from being "in the guard" to getting around the opponent's legs, resulting in side control); or else as a finishing submissions. Most submissions are either chokes (cutting off the blood supply to the brain) or arm locks (hyperextending the elbow, or twisting the shoulder).

 

Belt ranks start at white belt, and progress through blue, purple, brown, and then black. It generally takes about 2-3 years of training multiple times per week to be promoted to the next belt rank. However, there is no formal rank test. Instead, rank is about the ability to apply jiu-jitsu techniques in a competitive match. A student generally needs to be able to reliably defeat most other students at a given rank in order to be promoted to the next rank.

 

Given the jiu-jitsu roots, and the interest in competition, occasionally related techniques are taught. In each case, other specific martial arts focus on these sets of techniques more than BJJ, and they generally just receive passing mention and rare practice in BJJ training. For example, takedowns tend to be similar to Judo and western wrestling; leg locks (such as in Sambo) are not encouraged but sometimes allowed. Some schools teach street self-defense or weapon defense as well; this instruction tends to be much more like old-style Japanese jiu-jitsu with partner practice, and rarely impacts the day-to-day grappling training. Also, many dedicated BJJ students are also interested in MMA competition, and attempt to practice their techniques without a gi, and sometimes with adding striking from boxing or Muay Thai.

 

Training:

 

Most training has students wearing a heavy ("jiu-jitsu" or "Judo") gi/kimono, on a floor with padded mats. A typical class involves 30 minutes of warm ups and conditioning, 30 minutes of technique practice with a willing partner, and 30 minutes of free sparring training, against an opponent of equal skill who attempts to submit you.

 

Most of the training is done with all students on the mat. For example, training usually beings with both students facing each other from a kneeling position.

 

Competition is also encouraged. For a jiu-jitsu tournament, competitors are divided by age, belt rank, and weight class. Time limits are generally five to ten minutes, depending on belt rank. Matches start with both competitiors standing, on a floor with a padded mat. A tap out from submission ends the match. If time runs out without a submission, points determine the winner:

 

2 points: Takedown from standing; Knee-on-stomach position; or Scissor, sweep, or flip, using legs (from bottom position to top)

 

3 points: Passing the guard

 

4 points: Mount; or Mount on back (with leg hooks in)

 

Many BJJ students are also interested in open submission grappling tournaments (different points rules, usually no gi), or Mixed Martial Arts (MMA). Most BJJ instructors encourage such competition, and often assist in the training. However, typically BJJ classes wear a gi, start from the knees, and prohibit strikes. "

http://bjj.org/rma-faq.html

And this is from https://www.gracie.com

"The Gracie style was created in Brazil in the early part of this century by Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu pioneer Carlos Gracie, who studied traditional Japanese jiu-jitsu as a teenager under the great Japanese champion, Mitsuyo Maeda (known in Brazil as Conde Koma -- the "Count of Combat").

 

Carlos Gracie, who was interested in streetfighting and was also a boxer, quickly modified the classical techniques he learned from Count Koma to meet the demands of real, "no rules" fighting in the streets of Brazil. The young Carlos Gracie then tested and refined his system through constant matches, open to all comers, constantly working to make it more effective. At one point, he even advertised in newspapers and on street corners for new opponents upon whom to practice and further refine his art. He fought anyone and everyone who was willing, regardless of size, weight or fighting style. Even though he was a mere 135 pounds, his style was so effective that Carlos Gracie was never defeated and became a legend in Brazil.

 

This tradition of open challenge is a part of the heritage of the Gracie style of jiu-jitsu. Carlos Gracie taught his style of jiu-jitsu to his four younger brothers (Oswaldo, Gastão, Jorge, and finally Helio) and to his older sons (including Carlson and Carley), and they in turn taught their brothers, sons, nephews and cousins. After Carlos retired from the ring, he managed the fight careers of his brothers and sons, continuing to challenge fighters of all styles throughout the world. This tradition of open challenge has been continued by his sons, grandsons, brothers, nephews, and students, who have consistently demonstrated the superiority of the Gracie style in real fights and minimum-rule matches in rings throughout the world. "

[Ego Assassin]

Maeda may have been a student of Kano but was a JuJitsu master as well. Thats like saying because I've done TKD in the future people are going to say that my Jiu Jitsu came from TKD. How do you make Judo from JuJitsu and then make Jiu Jitsu from Judo doesn't make since. and from the lips from a video is not convincing. On T.V. you can easily manipulate what is being said. My instructor has been with the Gracies for 30 years and all the references I have say the same thing. Check out The Gracie Way.

i

[White Warlock]

Maeda may have been a student of Kano but was a JuJitsu master as well.

No, he studied judo... not another form of ju-jutsu, as well as my information on Maeda goes.

To avoid conflicts with the Kodokan (Jigoro Kano and family), Maeda taught judo under the 'guise' of the title ju-jutsu. This is also quite known, and is one of the reasons the Gracie family continued presenting judo as ju-jutsu. Also, Egoassassin, Gracies' own site clearly indicate they initially were teaching judo (under the misnomered title of ju-jutsu).

That is, after all, my presentation to these discussions. The foundation art to bjj is judo, not a ju-jutsu (it can be argued that judo is a jujutsu, but for these discussions there does need to be a differentiation). It 'began' as a sport-oriented art.

Also, i am not disputing your expertise in technique or application of the art of bjj, only in some of the historical information on the art. Nobody has all the right answers, and oftentimes i'm corrected. I've always considered this a good thing... despite the smack of humility that it carries.