Sticky Hands

[shogeri]

Dan Chi Sao, that I know of, is when one student holds his hand in tan sao, the "dispersing hand." Another holds his same-side hand and arm in fook sao, the "hooking" or "subduing" hand.

1 .The student holding a dispersing hand, executes a palm strike.

2. The student holding hooking hand, turns the "hooking hand" into a jut sao, or "jerking hand."

3. He then delivers a vertical punch,

4. The other student uses bon sao, the "wing arm," to stop the strike from connecting to his forehead.

This is done repeatedly.

It too works using many of the same combative and sensitivity principles as Taijiquan, just with different applications more appropiate to Wing Chun.

I may be weak on this description, as it's been a while with Wing Chun drills, which I only learned because it was from a Progressive Fighting Arts system which was based upon JKD as well.

Other's may have a better description than I.

[ovine king]

single sticky hands is not the same as double sticky hands and trains and teaches different things.

not to mention that any time you have contact is technically sticky hands, it's just not called it officially in the way the chi sau and poon sau is called it.

the basic mun sau/wu sau/tan sau rotation is a basic sticky hand drill.

anyway.

you learning wing chun trapping methods for sticky hands will not help your karate.

you are better off reading about why they use a sticky hands type of training and applying your own karate movements to a similar (not the same) type of exercise.

[shogeri]

I agree with the above.

I do Tui Shou now, and find that it works for almost every application I need.

Recall, my ancient past of Japanese Shotokan and Okinawan Goju Ryu Karate.

While practicing Goju Ryu Karate, we also when through a progression of kakie (push hands) skills as well. However they varied quite a bit from wing chun, and completely different than Taijiquan.

As most know, Kakie (push hands) originated in China, and in this case was modified to suit the Okinawan Karate Do methods. Goju Ryu is known for its in-fighting, along with trapping, locking and takedown maneuvers.

The Kakie of Goju-Ryu Karate-Do was brought to Okinawa by Master Kanryo Higaonna. He had studied Kakie in Foochow, China from Master Ryu Ryu Ko.

There are two versions of Kakie used in Okinawan Goju-Ryu Karate-Do.

In the first version, the hands follow a forward and backward motion which describes a small upward and downward crescent shaped arch.

The shape of the arm would be in a open hand (versus closed fist) extended chu (middle) block.

Your forearm is pressed slightly against that of your partner. Do not lose contact.

Be in sanchin stance, legs shoulder width apart. The heel of the front foot begins, where the back toes start.

Slightly shift your weight, from foot to foot, and move your waist in the direction of the circular motion.

Switch hands every 5 minutes or so.

In the second version, the hands stay horizontal to the ground and move in a circular motion. Wrist on Wrist. Open hand. One hand presses up, the other down.

Follow or obey, lead or direct.

Version one is the most common form practiced.

An advanced version would be to take version one and walk around the room with your partner while keeping contact, and changing direction of the arching (circular) motion.

One can also do leg kakie, by placing the ankles together and performing pressing, along with circular motion, changing directions, and feet frequently.

This is something else we did many years ago.

Hope this helps.

[ovine king]

ive never been any good at tui sau.

every time i feel the retraction i get the urge to close in and hit which, in tai chi terms means i have lost the 'game' whereas i'm used to just hitting the other guy if they yield too much.

By far the most useful non chi-sau chi-sau I tend to show people is very similar to tapi tapi where you just slap and feed, slap and feed....

Almost every style has this type of movement in it and this is a basci exercise that you can use with facing drills and stepping/closing drills and mix-up however you like. It also means I don't have to explain how wing chun works to get them doing something which, when it's not a serious class, makes things happen much quicker.

[shogeri]

So you want to jump from beginning partner training right into the advance part of sticky hands.

The focus of push hands is to also build up you back, arm, and shoulder strength.

The longer you do it, the better it is for you.

[ovine king]

first things first.

i don't teach.

the people i train with tend to be people with prior experience in martial arts and are usually not looking for me to teach them my wing chun.

when we train together, we exchange ideas and methods.

the simple slap and feed thing teaches the most basic of wing chun movements added to the most simple of wing chun strikes added to the most simple of wing chun footwork steps added to the most simple concept of wing chun facing.

in short

slap-punch-step if you need-turn to face if you need

the 'hidden' concepts in this drill is the timing of the initial interception and where you choose to slap.

bear in mind that way before i did 'official' chi sau, i was taught the very first part of this

i.e the slap/hit.

in other words, this IS the most basic chi sau drill, except i've moved it on a few steps but it still is the most basic drill. It is, in my mind, the easiest way of showing them how fundemental wing chun works. Sure i could teach them the form but that won't teach them the core principles. I could teach them the drills from step one going from facing and punching into partner's punching but that won't show them how the style works. I could show them chi sau proper but again, that doesn't really show how wing chun fights.

this is how what i said earlier relates to this thread.

I have in the past trained with people who do other styles and I know from personal experience that tring to teach them chi sau as wing chun does it is virtually pointless.

To teach chi sau, you have to teach them correct wing chun movments which would mean teaching them at least the three seeds. If i'm teaching the three seeds then I might as well teach them the complete first form.

only problem is, I don't need to teach all this to get them to understand what wing chun is about.

Instead, I show them a general way of how wing chun works and how it trains and how it relates to our forms. The idea being that if I show how chi sau relates to wing chun forms, they can work their own exercises from their own forms and drills.

push hands is different to sticky hands.

(at least how i was shown).

and I know my wing chun ways have always hindered my ability to learn other styles properly.

in the push hands game, I was taught that I aim to be still centre so I almost work my opponent around me. On the other hand, in sticky hands, the idea is that during the game, you work to find a hole. If there is no hole, you make one. Once you have a hole, you go through it. That is where I fail the most. Every time my partner yields, I automatically go to make him yield more than he wants to, thus making my way into his gates.

Unfortunately, what happens next is what i can only call a class of styles' training methods.

in Tai Chi push hands, if you feel yielding, you usually go with it retaining your own 'balance'. If you are one yielding, you expect this and proceed to redirect in order to find a new direction to take balance again.

i.e you work without having to step.

In wing chun, if you yield my instinct would be to step into you, thus mantaining my balance but putting you out of the centre of the game. This is where the conflict comes in. Push hands doesn't really deal with your partner stepping directly into you, at least not without disrupting the game.

On the other hand, the wing chun stepping in would equate to you losing the push hands hame, even though your step means you now have the centre, an off balance opponent who is now playing catch-up and you can make a hit on your way in.

Who wins?

the yielder takes the push hands game but the wing chun guy makes his entry and hit.

incidentally, push hands has always been about how to play the balance game, the idea being that if you control the balance, you control the situation. Problem is when you only do one way of push hands and only in one type of environment. Just like wing chun doesn't really deal with what to do with an opponent who has fallen, tai chi doesn't really deal with what happens in push hands when you do have taken their balance.

This is a flaw found in many chinese styles in that it assumes that once you have won that part of the game, the fight is over.

(there are exceptions of course and different schools have their own ways...)

these drills have never been, for me, about building back arm and shoulder strength.

[shogeri]

I see what you're saying. It is good to be doing what you are.

Push hands or tui shou is also designed to work with Taijiquan. They are inseparable, just as san shou should also be employed, as well as standing qigong.

Kakie is integral to Goju Ryu, thus it should be done with all karate, but I know that it is not.

Sensitivity drills, and locking, or trapping techniques are crucial to the external arts.

All arts for that matter.

I cross train with other instructors usually.

I am always looking for a someone to pass all this down to. Might be a family member, a friend or stranger. Who knows.

So far as the physical aspect of this particular drill, like other Martial art related activities, there is a duality in purpose.