At what age is one ready for Shodan?

[Takeda Shingen]

I am glad you are LOL, but in all seriousness I meant to address you in a way of respect to me. Thank you for clarifying your preference.

...It is not within the scope of authority of a karate instructor to attempt to control the behavior of his students outside of his karate class....I don't think a karate teacher has any business what you do in your private life.

...Mr. Miyagi, your 15 y.o. hot shot BB Chachi is using that stuff to beat up Ralph and Potsie at Arnold's and smack around Joanie. Richie Cunningham is thinking of taking you to court.

And thus, ranks are done away with...so how does one - entering a dojo for the first time - differentiate between those she/he should emulate, and those she/he should not...is a non-rank system possible?

The same way you do in baseball, football, soccer, tennis, and every other sport on the planet that is not karate.

Ranks really are unnecessary. We just keep them around because we expect to see them.

Oh, you mean that those batting titles and World Series MVPs, Super Bowl MVPs, World Cup trophies, and Grand Slam titles do not differentiate the rookies from the pros? Nor count when they re-nego a contract?

Domo..

TS

[angus88]

If karate and the school in which it's taught means nothing more to it's owner than an advanced health club, then that's all it will be. So be it.

[Patrick]

Oh, you mean that those batting titles and World Series MVPs, Super Bowl MVPs, World Cup trophies, and Grand Slam titles do not differentiate the rookies from the pros? Nor count when they re-nego a contract?

Of course, those aren't handed out as much as black belts.

[24fightingchickens]

If karate and the school in which it's taught means nothing more to it's owner than an advanced health club, then that's all it will be. So be it.

Rather than advance health club, how about "company baseball team." That's how I view it. It is something I have done my entire life.

I started karate as a child, and I've trained for decades. I did it the ultra-militant way most of that time, meditating 30 mins a day, hitting a makiwara an hour a day, training for an hour in the morning, and hour in the evening, and then teaching a two hour class. I subverted my career, education, and everything to the purpose of running my life in accordance with the principles of karate. I tried to become that mystical zen figure who is hyper disciplined.

I am on the other end of that journey now, and let me share with you what I think of the trip. What a total waste of time that was. I succeeded only in making myself miserable, missing opportunities to be more well-balanced in my life and experience other people outside of my karate circle.

So forgive me, but I have taken my karate way too seriously for far too long, and I will not do that any longer, because the result in my skills, mental abilities, emotional state, and such was actually less than for some people who were not taking it nearly as seriously as I was - people who did it for fun seem to have gotten more out of the experience.

That has been my approach for some years now, and I much prefer it, and I recommend it.

Ever seen Mr. Baseball? "Baseball is a game, and games are supposed to be fun."

Karate is a hobby, and hobbies are supposed to be fun.

It is entirely possible to become a better person without suffering more than the average person, I have learned.

[24fightingchickens]

I am glad you are LOL, but in all seriousness I meant to address you in a way of respect to me. Thank you for clarifying your preference.

I was not offended, just making a joke. You can call me whatever makes you feel comfortable.

...Mr. Miyagi, your 15 y.o. hot shot BB Chachi is using that stuff to beat up Ralph and Potsie at Arnold's and smack around Joanie. Richie Cunningham is thinking of taking you to court.

Karate instructors are not held liable in court for the behavior of their students in the United States. Not unless they coerced or threatened them to behaving poorly. People take shooting classes, and the instructors are not held liable when the student shoots someone. A baseball coach is not held liable if a pitcher throws a baseball at another child and injures him.

We are generally held accountable for our own behavior. I teach a skill, and while teaching it, I slide in some inspirational and motivational speaking, but I don't try to control those that I teach or make rules of mine for them to obey outside of class. Something would have to be very serious or happen in class for me to become concerned.

Oh, you mean that those batting titles and World Series MVPs, Super Bowl MVPs, World Cup trophies, and Grand Slam titles do not differentiate the rookies from the pros? Nor count when they re-nego a contract?

No, those are just more titles, more labels, more social engineering.

I can see who it is that has skill because of how they move and also how they comport themselves. I can tell who the coach is because he is standing in the front of the room telling us all what to do.

Ranks are artificial. They just give us a goal at first, and later on, they make us feel self-important. We do not get anything else from them. They do not help our income, get us a better job, nor serve others as indicators of skill, since we do not necessarily get them for skill reasons.

They are social status within a hiearchical group still operating using the militaristic culture of Japan's war-time society.

Funny that people learn baseball all over the US and become great players without ever being "ranked."

[angus88]

Karate instructors are not held liable in court for the behavior of their students in the United States. Not unless they coerced or threatened them to behaving poorly.

This is kind of an interesting topic in itself - something I've thought a lot about when it comes to liability in running a karate school.

Historically, I don't think it's happened yet, but I can't believe it's as out of the question as a baseball coach or a shooting coach. It seems like all it would take is about two people to lie on a witness stand. See the late-80's skinhead guru Tom Metzger in California about that one. It doesn't take much to say someone made you do it, or taught you how. It just depends on how politicized the case is, especially in America.

I just think as much as martial arts have become more like a sport than martial arts, it wouldn't take much for a court of law to see it however they wanted to.

[angus88]

I am on the other end of that journey now, and let me share with you what I think of the trip. What a total waste of time that was. I succeeded only in making myself miserable, missing opportunities to be more well-balanced in my life and experience other people outside of my karate circle.

Yep - if you're miserable in what you're doing, you probably need to re-evaluate it. A lot of people I know that started karate as kids went through a bad burn-out period when they got older. They felt like they lost their childhood. Some came back to it after leaving for a while, some didn't.

Of course I don't think there's anything wrong with being serious about karate either - in fact I think it most certainly should be. You could get seriously hurt if you don't. But yeah, you have to keep it all in perspective, especially if you want any kind of quality of life. Bottom line: you still have to have fun with it or I can't imagine it being worth the time or effort.

[Takeda Shingen]

Thank you for the posts. I am learning a lot of information, gaining good perspective, and insights....why do you think the poll is as dead heat?

I thought that Western responses would have been totally in favor of approving of a young BB since there is more independence of thought, recognition of just ability, and none/less of the Japanese bushido militarism (sic) - hierachy...is it that, or do you think there are still some who believe in/observe traditional MA? And if there is youngster burnout, where they promoted too fast...burntout...did not get immediate gratification, or the "$3K - My Goal is BB Guarantee in 3 months" - "Jenny Craig of MA-type response..now that's no fun...

As for the liability issue...I would think that there would be more thought to this...especially in a litigious society...even if you sign a dojo waiver, there is no preventing one's right to sue.

So, I am not sure that if you train a young or immature/unstable adult..and he does some damage around town......(!).

"Your honor the video games made me do it..."; could very well change to: "Miyagi Sensei told my pre-pubescent child that she/he was ready for BB...it went to her/his head and that made her/him do it.."

Laywer: "Well, the kid is not yet, 18...we gotta sue somebody."

Osu.

TS

[24fightingchickens]

Thank you for the posts. I am learning a lot of information, gaining good perspective, and insights....why do you think the poll is as dead heat?

I thought that Western responses would have been totally in favor of approving of a young BB since there is more independence of thought, recognition of just ability, and none/less of the Japanese bushido militarism (sic) - hierachy...is it that, or do you think there are still some who believe in/observe traditional MA?

I think Westerners who do white-uniformed Japanese sport karate (referred to usually as "traditional karate" but really hardly traditional) often try very hard to be more Japanese than the Japanese themselves. They will form a militaristic sub-culture within their karate clubs sometimes that rivals or even surpasses that of very rigorous groups such as the famous one from Takushoku. They can be quite militant.

While for the average Westerner, I think your generalization would be accurate, for the average Westerner fascinated by Japan, it is not.

As for the liability issue...I would think that there would be more thought to this...especially in a litigious society...even if you sign a dojo waiver, there is no preventing one's right to sue.

In fact, there are obstacles to filing a lawsuit. Most attorneys will not take a case unless there is some precedent or hope of winning. To date, within the US at least, no karate instructor that I am aware of has ever been held accountable for his student's behavior. Gun manufacturers have been sued as liable for use of handguns, and these suits have been thrown out or found for the defendents.

My teachers taught me to read and write. If I write something threatening, my teachers are not called to task for it because they gave me the skill. I am responsible for how I use it.

No lawyer would take that case, I believe, because the chance of success would be very low, and would likely result in a summary judgement in favor of the instructor.

So, I am not sure that if you train a young or immature/unstable adult..and he does some damage around town......(!).

In the US, I am safe if I do this. Besides, it would not be difficult to demonstrate in court that most who seek karate lessons in the US are potentially disturbed or unstable - otherwise why do they pursue a violent hobby?

"Your honor the video games made me do it..."; could very well change to: "Miyagi Sensei told my pre-pubescent child that she/he was ready for BB...it went to her/his head and that made her/him do it.."

Laywer: "Well, the kid is not yet, 18...we gotta sue somebody."

Osu.

Videogame makers have not been held accountable either in our country.

Not yet.

The day these sorts of liability are demonstrated as successful will be the end of capitalism, as no one will be willing to produce any product and sell it nor teach anything to anyone for fear of how it might be used. I will agree with you that we should all hope such a day never arrives.

[kuwait_karate]

Well i play shotokan and i got my black belt when i was 13 and now im 3 dan and im 22 so what i think if you deserve it you take it and there are test and exams before doing it so if you pass you take it nice and easy