At what age is one ready for Shodan?

[MATX1]

Maturity is not the same as age. I've met Shodan's who aren't mature enough in my opinion; some were under 17, others in their forties.

[24fightingchickens]

Boy, you guys sure do have a lot of complications due to not asking all of the students to mind their own business and let the teacher do the teaching.

[angus88]

We have no complications at all. When class is going on it's very clear who the instructors are and who the students are. The high ranking black belt runs the class.

Simple enough to have run for a long, long time that way!

Edited October 12, 2005 by angus88

[shotochem]

Where I train the instructors do the teaching for all the classes just about all the time. There may be a rare occassion or 2 when one of them can't be there and a high ranking adiult BB will run the class with a few of the other BB assisting when asked.

I can't understand why a lot of people train at places where the instructors are not teaching. I pay good money for the knowledge and experience of my instructors. I expect to be trained by THEM not a lesser quality substitute. We are paying customers after all.

If you orderd fillet Minon in a restaurant and the served you a hamburger and payed the same price, you would not eat there again.

[Takeda Shingen]

Osu!

Thank you all for the insightful comments. Clearly one who has the ability should be recognized, but if being a BB is merely technique, then I suppose it is OK for someone like Dennis Rodman, Ty Cobb, Barry Bonds and others to act the bad boy, shun being a role model and act anyway they wish – as long as their performance in the game is good.

So why isn’t Pete Rose in the Hall of Fame?

You also know about when it is time to line up. Many MAs love to “take their rightful place in line”…it means everything to some...or doing kata, or leading a group of kohai in class for kihon, kata, or showing someone on the side before/after class when Sensei is not around. Who sweeps the dojo...does things for the dojo... etc. In some dojos in Japan, they respect a person’s age, wisdom and life experiences and do not allow budo-ka younger than 18 to stand ahead of an adult - regardless of rank.

So the question remains – is it pure skill level? or is it something deeper?

[karate-ka1]

Spirit first technique second.

[24fightingchickens]

Thank you all for the insightful comments. Clearly one who has the ability should be recognized, but if being a BB is merely technique, then I suppose it is OK for someone like Dennis Rodman, Ty Cobb, Barry Bonds and others to act the bad boy, shun being a role model and act anyway they wish – as long as their performance in the game is good.

In fact, yes, this is OK. They can act the bad boy and shun being a role model. Because someone is an athlete does not make him responsible for mentoring a generation of children by exhibiting only his best behavior.

That is our job, as parents, not the job of people on the TV.

So why isn’t Pete Rose in the Hall of Fame?

Probably because he violated his contract, broke federal law, lied about it, and then was caught red-handed.

There are plenty of people in that hall of fame who were not role models. Babe Ruth and his drinking and eating binges, plus his filthy mouth, was certainly no role model.

I am careful to raise my kids by openly commenting on this sour behavior and pointing out the dysfunctional personalities of these attention and glory hounds with their outrageous lifestyles born from having everything they ever wanted and now becoming bored. The only reason they would see them as role models is if they see dad and mom looking up to these people and giving them the time of day. In my home, we do not. So this is not a problem for us.

Again, it is my job to raise my kids, not the NFL's. I don't think it would be fair to expect the folks in professional sports to raise my kids. They aren't even adults themselves, emotionally, and I doubt they are up to the job. I know they are not volunteering for it.

You also know about when it is time to line up. Many MAs love to “take their rightful place in line”…it means everything to some...or doing kata, or leading a group of kohai in class for kihon, kata, or showing someone on the side before/after class when Sensei is not around. Who sweeps the dojo...does things for the dojo... etc. In some dojos in Japan, they respect a person’s age, wisdom and life experiences and do not allow budo-ka younger than 18 to stand ahead of an adult - regardless of rank.

So the question remains – is it pure skill level? or is it something deeper?

It is not pure skill level. It is a combination of factors which render karate rank virtually meaningless.

For one, there is no objective standard to be met to receive any rank because of differences between human beings. Largely, ranks are granted for self-improvement in skills, attendance, social status, coaching ability, bringing in lots of members, promotion ability, and a host of other characteristics including good looks and tenure.

Anyone taking someone else's rank seriously has, imo, an idealistic view of what karate ranks are really given out for.

[Takeda Shingen]

Osu, 24 FC San. Thank you for your attn and response. Your opinion carries much weight for me and many. Domo...

Because someone is an athlete does not make him responsible for mentoring a generation of children by exhibiting only his best behavior.

Can we assume that from your reasoning, that any BB, adult and juvenile alike, has no obligation for best behavior in/out of the dojo? Lax dojo etiquette, freely admonishing others, showing off, moping about for not getting her/his way, coming/going whenever, scoffing at the Sensei behind his back...but as long has she/he has technical proficiency to earn BB - they are not bound to lead by example, effort and spirit, nor by adherence to budo/karate/dojo tradition commensurate with rank?

Again, it is my job to raise my kids, not the NFL's. I don't think it would be fair to expect the folks in professional sports to raise my kids. They aren't even adults themselves, emotionally, and I doubt they are up to the job. I know they are not volunteering for it.

And, those incapable of not being adults themselves emotionally are not up for the job and responsibilities of a BB?

It is not pure skill level. It is a combination of factors which render karate rank virtually meaningless.

Anyone taking someone else's rank seriously has, imo, an idealistic view of what karate ranks are really given out for.

Striving for idealism in our daily lives and especially in the dojo give us at least some reason and motivation....

And thus, ranks are done away with...so how does one - entering a dojo for the first time - differentiate between those she/he should emulate, and those she/he should not...is a non-rank system possible? We know many masters/sifus/grand champions and various pedigree who possess questionable qualities not worth the mulititude of their patches...yet, accordingly, if ranks are abolished; we have a fine young technically proficient <17 BB - who, after ranks are abolished, has no BB...will anyone (karate-ka1, shotchem, angus88, weaponless, and others) listen to/look up to her/him as a sempai? How will we know who is who and, for that matter, who knows/is qualified to show the Way?

...and so the question remains...

Osu.

Son'ja...

TS

[shotochem]

It should be obvious to anyone watching as to who has more skill. On one night to prove this point to a few people with an ego problem, we all wore whitebelts.

To a passer by or anyone who walked in the door you can easily see the difference in skill. You could see who is more proficient but I bet you could not line them up in their actual belt order.

If you put my crude fingerpainting next to the work of a Rembrant or a Moet the difference would be quite obvious.

The whole hangup is that people associate: Belt= Skill and knowledge.

The darker and more of those cool looking stripes the better and more skilled the person must be. I can't totally fault people for this as a beginner I had thought of things in the same way. It's only after training a while you can tell which BB is more skilled than the other.

Next to your average whitebelt I would look like Bruce Lee.

[24fightingchickens]

Osu, 24 FC San. Thank you for your attn and response. Your opinion carries much weight for me and many. Domo...

If that were true, no one would "osu" at me, use -san after my name, or say "domo" to me. LOL!

Can we assume that from your reasoning, that any BB, adult and juvenile alike, has no obligation for best behavior in/out of the dojo? Lax dojo etiquette, freely admonishing others, showing off, moping about for not getting her/his way, coming/going whenever, scoffing at the Sensei behind his back...but as long has she/he has technical proficiency to earn BB - they are not bound to lead by example, effort and spirit, nor by adherence to budo/karate/dojo tradition commensurate with rank?

To be an effective instructor who is not an intrusive, manipulative, and over-controlling sort of person, I believe understanding very clearly the "scope of authority" of a karate instructor is very, very important.

It is not within the scope of authority of a karate instructor to attempt to control the behavior of his students outside of his karate class. Only when they are on his property (rented, mortgaged, or paid for) that their behavior can be held against them.

Customers of a karate school are not employees of the school and therefore cannot be held responsible for representing it or its owners. They are not agents of the school.

Karate instructors are coaches, just like any other after school activity coach you might have or a teacher in any class in school or college. They have a class, and you behave in the class or they can admonish you and ultimately have you removed. How you act in your own home, on the street, around town, and otherwise outside of his class is none of his business.

Unless you take some illegal action or become involved in something that results in him needing to remove you from the class to protect himself or his other students. For example, you becoming convicted of a violent crime would justify his removing you, because refusing to teach people headed for prison or fresh out of prison is any school's perogative. If you are commiting libel or slander against the teacher personally or his operation, you might be removed.

Otherwise, I don't think a karate teacher has any business what you do in your private life. And a good question would of course be, "How would he know unless you tell him?"

And, those incapable of not being adults themselves emotionally are not up for the job and responsibilities of a BB?

Black belt is not a job nor a responsibility. It is the equivalent of a certification from a training operation providing after-hours training. For example, certification in project management or in managing computer networks from a company would be similar. These people offering this training and these certifications have no expectation that those certified will conduct themselves in any particular fashion. They are not agents of the trainer- they are customers.

Striving for idealism in our daily lives and especially in the dojo give us at least some reason and motivation....

I disagree.

I believe in observing healthy limits. There is a degree of striving for self-improvement that is healthy, and then there is a further degree of it that reflects obsession and perfectionism. I cannot speak for anyone else, but I know when I am doing the latter because I begin to experience unhappiness and others around me start noticing I am cranky.

I try to be nice to myself and not hold myself to an unnecessarily high standard while not being so easy on myself that I allow myself to flounder and flop about.

And thus, ranks are done away with...so how does one - entering a dojo for the first time - differentiate between those she/he should emulate, and those she/he should not...is a non-rank system possible?

The same way you do in baseball, football, soccer, tennis, and every other sport on the planet that is not karate.

Ranks really are unnecessary. We just keep them around because we expect to see them.