At what age is one ready for Shodan?

[angus88]

So, then, is the 35 year old 1 year adult able to provide pointers to the 15 year old 4 year just because he is 35? If so, he hasn't done anything to earn the right except turn 18, I imagine? It would seem that knowledge gained within your school under the age of 18 doesn't receive much respect. Let's say the 35 year old asks the 15 year old for feedback, is the 15 year old forbidden from doing so?

1. No, the 35 year old, because he is lower "rank", will not give tips to the 15 year old "higher" rank.

2. Knowledge gained to someone under 18 gets a certain degree of respect, but a kid is still a kid. If the 15 year old black belt is assigned to instruct, say, a new kata, to a 35 year old Orange belt, he may do so. And in that instruction he may make corrections as needed. But in this instance he is being assigned to do so by an adult black belt. However, if the 15 year old black is merely watching the 35 year old work out and notices he's doing something wrong, he needs to tell an adult brown belt or black belt and they will make the correction.

3. If the 35 year old asks a question, the 15 year old is certainly allowed to answer.

At our school karate is not just kata, drills and sparring. There is a certain degree of humility and maturity that should go along with it. This is part of the tradition. Kids are allowed to train of course, but it's essential that kids understand that they are not adults yet.

An unsolicited correction by a child to an adult shows arrogance and is disrespectful. I believe our rules regarding junior ranks and the rules that go along with it helps them.

[shotochem]

So, then, is the 35 year old 1 year adult able to provide pointers to the 15 year old 4 year just because he is 35? If so, he hasn't done anything to earn the right except turn 18, I imagine? It would seem that knowledge gained within your school under the age of 18 doesn't receive much respect. Let's say the 35 year old asks the 15 year old for feedback, is the 15 year old forbidden from doing so?

1. No, the 35 year old, because he is lower "rank", will not give tips to the 15 year old "higher" rank.

2. Knowledge gained to someone under 18 gets a certain degree of respect, but a kid is still a kid. If the 15 year old black belt is assigned to instruct, say, a new kata, to a 35 year old Orange belt, he may do so. And in that instruction he may make corrections as needed. But in this instance he is being assigned to do so by an adult black belt. However, if the 15 year old black is merely watching the 35 year old work out and notices he's doing something wrong, he needs to tell an adult brown belt or black belt and they will make the correction.

3. If the 35 year old asks a question, the 15 year old is certainly allowed to answer.

At our school karate is not just kata, drills and sparring. There is a certain degree of humility and maturity that should go along with it. This is part of the tradition. Kids are allowed to train of course, but it's essential that kids understand that they are not adults yet.

An unsolicited correction by a child to an adult shows arrogance and is disrespectful. I believe our rules regarding junior ranks and the rules that go along with it helps them.

I find myself in agreement with Angus.

I have seen too many cases where a child BB is left to instruct a class or has gone around disciplining lower ranks (ie push up sit ups ect....)

Sorry, but at my age you had better be at least close to 20 before you ever expect me to drop and give you 20. I've been on the planet a lot longer than you and quite frankly I have clothing older than you begone little demon go bother the adoring children in your midst.

I have also had a few big headed young BB come up to me and offer their unsolicited expertise as I work out a bit before class.

This I find quite annoying. I start off politely thanking them for their concern and sometimes explain that an older persons body just don't do things the same way as a younger ones.

Then if the little annoyance won't go away I move over to the heavy bag and blast away full power (this usually shuts them up as they then realize in a good 10 yrs they might be able to hit as hard and precise as I do.

[ninjanurse]

I tend to agree with shogeri on this one. In general, age should not be a consideration when receiving assistance from a higher ranking belt as part of the responsibility of holding rank is to learn to teach others and give back what has ben given to you. How else do we teach our Juniors to teach and grow if we do not allow them to take on those responsibilities? Likewise, lessons in humility take on many forms including taking instruction from a "child". Of course, as with any student of any age or rank, experience does not make them an effective teacher nor does it guarantee they have the social skills to be able to communicate respectfully, therefore, guidelines should be established and sensei must be aware of what is going on in the school at all times. Dis-respectful behavior on any students part regardless of age should be dealt with accordingly.

Personally, I make it a practice to always ask a fellow classmate if they would like my assistance rather than to just give out unsolicited "tips" and encourage my students to do likewise.

[Patrick]

Personally, I make it a practice to always ask a fellow classmate if they would like my assistance rather than to just give out unsolicited "tips" and encourage my students to do likewise.

That's a good way to be.

I have also had a few big headed young BB come up to me and offer their unsolicited expertise as I work out a bit before class.

This I find quite annoying. I start off politely thanking them for their concern and sometimes explain that an older persons body just don't do things the same way as a younger ones.

Then if the little annoyance won't go away I move over to the heavy bag and blast away full power (this usually shuts them up as they then realize in a good 10 yrs they might be able to hit as hard and precise as I do.

And how do you treat a big headed adult BB who does the same thing?

[angus88]

part of the responsibility of holding rank is to learn to teach others and give back what has ben given to you. How else do we teach our Juniors to teach and grow if we do not allow them to take on those responsibilities?

This is why occassionally, you give the junior rank an assignment to instruct someone on something like their new kata. They definitely need to learn how to teach, but there is a difference in an adult black belt telling them to "go teach that 50 year old gold belt how to do his new kata" and what I was talking about.

Likewise, lessons in humility take on many forms including taking instruction from a "child".

I disagree with you on this one. An adult learns his humility from another adult, not a child. Frankly, there is nothing more humbling than the first time an adult spars with a high ranking adult - he suddenly understands the difference between himself and the other person.

sensei must be aware of what is going on in the school at all times. Dis-respectful behavior on any students part regardless of age should be dealt with accordingly.

I couldn't agree more. But some standards just need to be a matter of course. Quite honestly, not every 16 year old brown belt is going to mouth off to a 50 year old gold belt. But that's what standards are for - to make sure it doesn't happen at all.

Personally, I make it a practice to always ask a fellow classmate if they would like my assistance rather than to just give out unsolicited "tips" and encourage my students to do likewise.

For this one it depends on the structure of the situation. If I'm instructing a class or assissting the instructor, I will teach and it will be 100% unsolicited! But if someone is practicing something on their own, I'll wait and see if they fix their own mistake. But I'm not going to let them practice the wrong move for 20 minutes - that's not really helping them either!

Good topic by the way. Lots of good discussion. I like seeing how different schools handle underage ranks and how that works into the dynamic of the school.

[ninjanurse]

part of the responsibility of holding rank is to learn to teach others and give back what has ben given to you. How else do we teach our Juniors to teach and grow if we do not allow them to take on those responsibilities?

This is why occassionally, you give the junior rank an assignment to instruct someone on something like their new kata. They definitely need to learn how to teach, but there is a difference in an adult black belt telling them to "go teach that 50 year old gold belt how to do his new kata" and what I was talking about.

This was a retorical question. Of course juniors are given assignments but they must also be given the chance to "do the right thing when no one else is looking".

Likewise, lessons in humility take on many forms including taking instruction from a "child".

I disagree with you on this one. An adult learns his humility from another adult, not a child. Frankly, there is nothing more humbling than the first time an adult spars with a high ranking adult - he suddenly understands the difference between himself and the other person.

Humility is not just about getting your brains pummeled or having someone intentionally embarrass you or another student.

sensei must be aware of what is going on in the school at all times. Dis-respectful behavior on any students part regardless of age should be dealt with accordingly.

I couldn't agree more. But some standards just need to be a matter of course. Quite honestly, not every 16 year old brown belt is going to mouth off to a 50 year old gold belt. But that's what standards are for - to make sure it doesn't happen at all.

Yes. There should be an expectation of respectful behavior at all belt levels. If we expect the worst of our students then that is what we will get.

Standards exist for us to try to meet not violate.

Personally, I make it a practice to always ask a fellow classmate if they would like my assistance rather than to just give out unsolicited "tips" and encourage my students to do likewise.

For this one it depends on the structure of the situation. If I'm instructing a class or assissting the instructor, I will teach and it will be 100% unsolicited! But if someone is practicing something on their own, I'll wait and see if they fix their own mistake. But I'm not going to let them practice the wrong move for 20 minutes - that's not really helping them either!

An Instructor-Student relationship is different than a Student-Student relationship but their common thread is respect.

[shogeri]

I remember what it was like to be a young kid, first and foremost. I also remember the countless hours it took to learn certain things. Now, in some cases, when I am able to self-correct, then I am able to help others correct themselves. Many times, a person of young age will technically know their stuff, but in some regards not be able to correct specifics. We had a 7 year black belt in GJR, and she was smart for her age, and her older sister (about 20) was also a black belt who helped her out. Technically she was great for her age. In all respects, she earned it, but on a level appropriate to her. I would and could learn technique from her.

But the adult size application, and correction belonged to someone of equitable size and demeanor, in order for it to truly be a fruitful experience.

She was excellent in regards to teaching children under the age of 13 or so.

Now this doesn't mean one doesn't respect her wishes, talent, or effort...Thus rank. Even if they are 50.

The same goes for a 50 year old respecting youth.

Respect is mutual, and yet given for different reasons. When dealing with an unknown person, it is given on a human level. Otherwise strangers wouldn't give a rat's butt about other people, and everyone would be annihilating everyone else.

Having a person approach you (that you do not know) wearing a Black Belt, does not immediately imply they deserve 'Black Belt' respect.

Once two people are placed into a situation, then respect becomes something that grows, and is earned. It follows the tenets of trust, honor, dignity, and so on.

Those are some more brief thoughts.

[angus88]

There should be an expectation of respectful behavior at all belt levels. If we expect the worst of our students then that is what we will get.

Standards exist for us to try to meet not violate.

I agree, but when standards are assumed, they will invariable get left behind. If not at first, eventually. This isn't Okinawa, circa 1955. There is no automatic respect with kids to adults anymore, even in the martial arts. But hey - maybe you've had a lot better experience with kids than we have. For me though - expectations are great and you can't document every rule to cover every situation - but sometimes if you can define your expectation - you probably should, in my opinion.

[weaponless]

Younger students get the chance to teach and help others... those in their age group who are of a lower rank, to have a 13 year old trying to teach adults or looking down to an adult of lower rank should not happen. Personally, I don't think that children should hold the rank of Shodan, but my cut-off point is 16, so take that as you wish.... I don't believe in junior black belts...I think there should be a certain expectation for Shodan, they should be wholly capable of defending themselves against most situations or people that he/she is faced with, or they wait until they can before becoming a black belt... I went to high-school with a "junior black-belt" and I pounded his head in in the parking lot one day. He threw one lousy kick that didn't hurt and got pummelled. Now I'm 30, and I don't behave like a hooligan anymore, I did alot of drinking and fighting and carrying on before I straightened out my life in my late 20s. But the fact remains that a "black belt" should be of a certain caliber that you won't get at 14.... period. I knew a guy in University who had been a brown belt as a youth as they didn't have junior black belts...when he reached adult status, he spent 4 years training at the adult level before he was granted Shodan, and he deserved it, he was old enough, strong enough to justify holding the rank of Shodan. There are no youth black belts at my school, they aren't allowed to be... but the cut-off between youth classes and adult is 16, and I'm fine with that.... I'm 30 now, but when I was 16, I was a mean son-of -a-gun and got into fights with "adults" in bars and such that I shouldn't have really been in in the first place...such is youth.... I'm older and wiser now...

... But at 16, there is a certain amount of maturity that starts to show, not that you're mature at 16, but if you're an immature jerk at 16, odds are you still will be at 18.... We have one 16 year old that just started in the adult classes at my school, and really, I have to watch myself around him, because he still is impressionable, and he can't handle the force that alot of the adults can, and I don't want to see him using a bunch of force against people knowing that he couldn't take that force back. but I know that so I go easy around him, and the Sensei would never pair him up with someone that obviously has more power than him, just in case....

But he started at 16, so he won't see Shodan till he's easily over the age of 18.... For those who came up in the youth ranks, when their age places them into the adult class, things change for them in a hurry, not, "welcome to adulthood, here's your black belt." The standards are different for youths.... there are different belts, and no black belt..... they have much much lower requirements for their belt gradings.... get belt promotions with half of the kata reportoire as the adults, and when they become "adults" they're expected to train like adults, and know what the adults of a particular rank know.... I don't see a 16 year old becoming a black belt at my school, even if it is possible.....

As to how do they learn to teach if you don't let them teach and correct/instruct adults.... very simple, they teach/assist/ correct those in their age group and lower of lower rank.... just like with the adults.... higher ranking adults assist the lower ranking adults, higher ranking children assist lower ranking children...very simple.

That having been said, noone can say anything to you unless he is Sensei. The only other person that can tell you what to do is Senpai, and she isn't likely to start dishing out push-ups.... If a brown or even black belt tries to tell you something at my Dojo, you simply say "Thank-you" and you do what Sensei told you to do, regardless of if they tell you to do something different. Higher ranks "assist" at my school, nothing more..... they cannot show you any new material, only Sensei can...they cannot punish you, only Sensei can.... On the other hand, I cannot ask a higher ranking belt a question about a technique, etc, I will be told to ask Sensei.... No member is allowed to teach another member anything, unless told to by Sensei. Higher ranks do not teach, they simply help you with techniques that have been taught... Now a brown or black belt can teach a class, and there is also a blue belt who teaches occassionally (blue belt is right under brown in our belt system)...this is done by Sensei's word, not on their own accord, and when they teach, they are given the respect that their position deserves, can answer questions, etc.... other than that, they can't really teach you anything. So we don't have too much of those kinds of problems at my school... higher ranks assist lower ranks, are shown the respect for their rank, black belts are addressed as Mr./Ms./Mrs. and their last name.... Senpai is always Senpai, Sensei is always Sensei.... there is respect.... and since a higher rank doesn't discipline a lower rank and start demanding push-ups and stuff, they keep the respect of those under them.....

...On a final note, no student under the age of 16, regardless of rank is allowed to say much of anything to anyone over 16, regardless of rank....

A 14 year old purple belt (which isn't even a belt for adults) doesn't give tips to a full-grown man with a white belt, it isn't permitted.... one of the virtues that we aspire to is respect for our elders and compassion for our juniors.... a youth is not permitted to deal with the adults. They call you "sir", they are respectful, and are shown the same respect. A youth cannot walk in front of an adult in the Dojo, even if he is a purple belt and the adult is a white... it is not done.... the adult is the senior in the relationship, regardless of rank..... as it should be....

When they're over 16 and hold a higher rank than an older adult, that is a totally different story..... but at 30, I'm not taking sparring tips from a 13 year old...it's not going to happen, and can't happen with the way our Dojo is run.

[shogeri]

Under my style, anyone who shows the technical capability (self-defense concepts, technical ability, fighting concepts, qi, etc), the maturity, the wisdom of the art, and can end a confrontation in less than 10 seconds has my vote. Once that is accomplished, they have to walk me through what they just did, write an essay, and that is pretty much it.

Age is a factor in what I teach, as it is more combative, less traditional, and less sport based. Essentially, it is a family based system, which is the flip side to traditional.

There are exceptions to every rule, no matter how trenched a style is in tradition.

I agree there should be standards within said system. I am just saying all this in case I was misunderstood in previous posts, which were geared more torward a traditional way of Martial Art.

those are my thoughts