Schools without affliation?

[Charlie]

Sensei Mike,

I notice your profile says "Shotokan and Knock-Down Kumite." Perhaps I'm misinterpreting that, but it looks like you're trying to combine the art of Shotokan with the practicality and toughness of Kyokushin and need to be independent because there isn't an existing association that already combines these two styles of Karate. Is this correct?

If so, then I don't think you're alone in that. There are probably other independent dojo out there that are doing or trying to do the same thing. Perhaps you all could unite and start a new style or association?

On a different subject in response to other posts on this thread...are there really associations out there that collect their dues from their member dojo and don't give anything in return? If so, which are they so I can avoid those in the future? It doesn't appear that the Enshin association does this, because the HQ (honbu?) appears to be very active and participatory in our activities and curriculum.

[Goju_boi]

I thought that "knock down kumite" sounded familiar.Isn't that how kyokushin spars or does their tournaments (knock down style)?

[Meguro]

Are you wondering whether joining a Kyokushin based organization will give your shotokan based karate legitimacy? From a Kyokushin point of view, the answer is no. From a Shotokan point of view, the answer is also no. Since you wish to teach a hybrid style of karate, why not dispense with affiliations altogether? Forget about using Kyokushin trademarks, allusions to affiliation, roots and let your karate speak for itself.

Get creative. Put some serious thought into what makes your karate different/better than your competitors. Then come up with your own kata, techniques, rank, etc. Enter your students in open knockdown tournaments. When they start to dominate the tournaments, your reputation and business will grow. Soon other independents will want to be affiliated with you.

[y2_sub]

Meguro's suggestion is the best until now , however I don't think that sensei Mike is looking for kyokushin trademarks and affiliation , but for knock down tournaments for his boys to participate in , to do that , he must join one of the kyokushin organizations ( or kyokushin offshoots )

[Firecracker]

but what constitutes a good lineage?

People can always link to Funakoshi in one way or another?

Jane

[Meguro]

Lineage and affiliation don't mean anything for what Sensei Mike is attempting. A Shotokan school can claim Funakoshi lineage. So what? There are good Shotokan dojo's and not so good ones. Same with Kyokushin, although the big organizations (IKO1 & IKO2), have a pretty tight control over who can set up shop, promotion of dan grades, etc.

If you look at the successful Kyokushin spin-offs, you will notice that none of them maintained their Kyokushin affiliation, they set out to make their own mark: Seido Kaikan, Seido Karate, Ashihara Karate, Enshin Karate, World Oyama Karate, Tiger Schulman Karate. Note that the founders of these successful dojo were quite accomplished when they left the organization. It didn't matter whether these guys had breakfast with Mas Oyama or not or paid association dues.

[SenseiMike]

What do you guys think when you see a "stand alone school"?

In the contemporary karate world that we live in, a "stand alone school" may lack the credibility and popularity that affiliated schools have. You've got to be a well-known personality by your own right/name and achievement in karate to be able to compete equitably if you are a stand-alone rather than affiliated with a nationally known or better still an internationally known karate organization.

I opened with no affliation to any federations or organizations because I couldn't find one I thought was right. I'm joining the USA-IFKK as an affliate, but they're a kyokushin group and I teach shotokan.

So far it hasn't bothered my students, but other teachers look down on this I think.

But I train different than most of these organizations allow for, and I don't see the point paying their dues & not getting anything in return.

If you have to affiliate, I suggest you affiliate with a Shotokan organization to avoid political and technical conflicts with the mother organization. Besides, as you must be feeling right now, you may not be feeling like you belong, right?

I don't know, I actually felt more alienated by the shotokan groups as they wanted so much money, and everything has to be done their way. The IFKK is giving me a cheap way to get my students out into tournaments here and abroad.

As for everything else. I think that it's only really been the non-affliated schools I went to that I really learned anything at. The restt of the big schools I've been too, were all really McDojoish.

[SenseiMike]

Are you wondering whether joining a Kyokushin based organization will give your shotokan based karate legitimacy? From a Kyokushin point of view, the answer is no. From a Shotokan point of view, the answer is also no. Since you wish to teach a hybrid style of karate, why not dispense with affiliations altogether? Forget about using Kyokushin trademarks, allusions to affiliation, roots and let your karate speak for itself.

Get creative. Put some serious thought into what makes your karate different/better than your competitors. Then come up with your own kata, techniques, rank, etc. Enter your students in open knockdown tournaments. When they start to dominate the tournaments, your reputation and business will grow. Soon other independents will want to be affiliated with you.

I really wasn't going hybrid, I'm happy with my shotokan I just like the whole knockdown fighting in general

[SenseiMike]

Sensei Mike,

I notice your profile says "Shotokan and Knock-Down Kumite." Perhaps I'm misinterpreting that, but it looks like you're trying to combine the art of Shotokan with the practicality and toughness of Kyokushin and need to be independent because there isn't an existing association that already combines these two styles of Karate. Is this correct?

If so, then I don't think you're alone in that. There are probably other independent dojo out there that are doing or trying to do the same thing. Perhaps you all could unite and start a new style or association?

On a different subject in response to other posts on this thread...are there really associations out there that collect their dues from their member dojo and don't give anything in return? If so, which are they so I can avoid those in the future? It doesn't appear that the Enshin association does this, because the HQ (honbu?) appears to be very active and

participatory in our activities and curriculum.

Yup that's it. I teach shotokan, and I love it, but I like to teach it as an actual fighting style, which is where the knockdown fighting comes in.

[Tommy_P]

Yup that's it. I teach shotokan, and I love it, but I like to teach it as an actual fighting style, which is where the knockdown fighting comes in.

Nothing wrong with that. Not all Shotokan organizations are sport oriented. Some teach point kumite and some don't.

I'm a Shotokan stylist and when I was coming up through the ranks my dojo sparred both hard contact and point sparring. We also practiced bare knuckle kumite.

These days the organization leans more toward competition but each branch dojo is free do teach pretty much how they want. I am not a "sport karate" type of guy and don't teach that kind of thing.

I prefer no safety equipment (foot and hand pads) and hard contact and I'm not a stand alone instructor.

I think people confuse systems and personal preferences. Kyokushin isn't any different than Shotokan or Goju or anything else, as a matter of fact it's made up of both styles. What is different is the way the particular organization chooses to run it's training/kumite/competition.

Same techniques, different way of practicing them. The individual is free to practice however he likes though.

When you really think about it, if your system or organization is entering competition, no matter if it's light contact or knockdown, it's still competition. that makes what you're doing a combative sport. It's geared toward competition. Some traditional Okinawan schools never compete at all and there are Shotokan schools that don't believe in or practice that way also (Shotokai). These schools practice only realistic applications of their art and it cannot be practiced/performed safely as in competition. Even knockdown is not true technique otherwise people would be getting seriously injured and /or killed.

I don't see that Sensei Mike is doing anything but practicing his Shotokan as it is ment to be practiced.

I think the competition folks, no matter the style, are the ones doing "something different" a modern morph/modification of the system.

Tommy