Tang Soo Do

[karatekid1975]

Ok, I know (kinda) where the forms came from ( I was a 5th gup when I left), but I miss TSD ALOT

EDIT: OK I do but that was my feelings for the night (and many times ... Tang Soo!)

[Goju_boi]

how come all these Korean arts copied shotokan?There more styles out there to chose from.not that Shotokan is bad,just that there isn't a variety that they chose from.

[Tommy_P]

how come all these Korean arts copied shotokan?There more styles out there to chose from.not that Shotokan is bad,just that there isn't a variety that they chose from.

I don't think they "copied" Shotokan, I think they learned it. I am not sure of the facts and don't have the data to support the statement at the moment, but I have read in the past about a Korean gentleman that studied in Okinawa or Japan Under either Funakoshi or maybe, is it Toyama?

Tang Soo Do pretty much retains the same way of teaching and some admit to the lineage while main stream TKD wanted to break all ties to Japan/Okinawa and denied any overlap in styles claiming a long history of their own. Thus the revamping of the forms, which were Japanese kata, to no longer look like their original Japanese configurations. The plan didn't work so well and they ended up becoming the modern Hyung which is just Heian kata with the technique order changed.

I had also read somewhere in a Korean history that the ties claimed to an ancient original art called Tae Kyun (sp?) or something like that, turned out to be not what originally thought. It was discovered that Tae Kyun was just a kids "Kicking game".

I thought there was the possibility of getting some insights into the history here in this forum as the normal history usually seems a little off the mark.

Tommy

[Goju_boi]

Taekyon is a old school martial arts that has been forgotten,but theres still practitioners.It looks like their dancing and just kicking each other.anyways dthis art did inspire other arts.

[blackbrown belt in KSD]

http://www.usadojo.com/martial-artists-biographies/martial-artist-rio-altaie.htm

try the above link for more info on Tang Soo Do. That is the style I started in. It was brought to America by Chuck Norris. He spent time learning the art in Korea during that war. Tang Soo Do is considered Korean however it does pull some Japanese elements into it.

I trained with Mr. DiStefano (3rd Dan back in 1991) He was from the Eagle Rock Studio (California) owned by Master McMeekin. He started a Tang Soo Do Club at UCLA because most students did not have transportation to the dojo in Eagle Rock.

Someone mentioned something about Shotokan. Yes, the kicks and punches are similar. It is considered a "hard style" (as opposed to a soft style that has more flowing movements.)

[bushido_man96]

Yes there is allowance for similarities, but to say these forms are orginal and date back so many years does need to be questioned.

Yes, this is true. The forms used in TKD anyway, are not all that old at all. They are derivatives of shotokan style forms, from what I have read. For the most part, people should not assume that the styles of TSD and TKD date back any farther than the 1940s and 1950s.

[Aodhan]

TKD as a specific style was created in 1955. There is a lot of history with the kwans, etc. that existed before that, but as a codified, recognized style, TKD was created in 1955, and celebrated its 50th anniversary last year.

From nothing to being one of the most (if not THE most) widely spread and recognized MA's around. Not bad.

Aodhan

[aefibird]

Even regular TKD seem to be Heian kata with the order of techniques jumbled.

Well, for a start "regular" TKD is getting harder and harder to define as more and more associations are forming. The "big 3" of WTF, ITF and ATA are still pretty dominant but there are plenty of schools and practitioners out there who do not train like those schools and are not affiliated with them in any way. The forms that those 3 organisations train in are all different, especially ATA who have created and copywrited theirt own Songahm set of forms.

Therefore, because of the vast differences there's a) no such thing as "regular" TKD and b) no such thing as a regular TKD form. Some clubs share common forms, many do not. I could name a whole long list of TKD patterns that plenty of people wouldn't have heard of or seen. Same for me - I've not heard of some of the forms other people talk about.

Also, it's not just "Heian kata jumbled up". Many forms in TKD were specifially created for TKD, rather than just a transferrance of the Shotokanised forms, such as TSD often uses. The Taeguek forms used in WTF TKD are a created by TKD practitioners for TKD practitioners, as are other groups of forms.

Finally, maybe TKD forms look like "jumbled" Heian kata because there's only so many ways a person can kick or punch? Techniques are common to many styles, as are the combinations of techniques. For example, forearm block followed by supported spear hand strike is found in Heian Sandan but also in other forms. Does it mean all other forms with it in are a jumble of H. Sandan? No, it just means that there are common and set ways of performing techniques in many styles.

[bushido_man96]

Even regular TKD seem to be Heian kata with the order of techniques jumbled.

Well, for a start "regular" TKD is getting harder and harder to define as more and more associations are forming. The "big 3" of WTF, ITF and ATA are still pretty dominant but there are plenty of schools and practitioners out there who do not train like those schools and are not affiliated with them in any way. The forms that those 3 organisations train in are all different, especially ATA who have created and copywrited theirt own Songahm set of forms.

Therefore, because of the vast differences there's a) no such thing as "regular" TKD and b) no such thing as a regular TKD form. Some clubs share common forms, many do not. I could name a whole long list of TKD patterns that plenty of people wouldn't have heard of or seen. Same for me - I've not heard of some of the forms other people talk about.

Also, it's not just "Heian kata jumbled up". Many forms in TKD were specifially created for TKD, rather than just a transferrance of the Shotokanised forms, such as TSD often uses. The Taeguek forms used in WTF TKD are a created by TKD practitioners for TKD practitioners, as are other groups of forms.

Finally, maybe TKD forms look like "jumbled" Heian kata because there's only so many ways a person can kick or punch? Techniques are common to many styles, as are the combinations of techniques. For example, forearm block followed by supported spear hand strike is found in Heian Sandan but also in other forms. Does it mean all other forms with it in are a jumble of H. Sandan? No, it just means that there are common and set ways of performing techniques in many styles.

This is a very good point. Even the associations that use the same ITF forms that General Choi created still make their own modifications to them that other associations don't have. I have seen 4 different ways to do basically the same set of forms.

[Scott James]

The reason why you're seeing so many similarities in the arts is because of the Japanese occupation of Korea. Many of the founders of the different Kwans were in some way taught Japanese Karate during this time period, or in the case of HKD, Jujitsu/Aiki-Jujitsu.

Hwang Kee claims that he took the kata for TSD from a book. I sometimes wonder if he said this to make His style seem more "Korean"

This is not to say that the Korean styles are total copies. If you notice Korean versions of the forms emphasis longer stances and high kicks. The long stances may me attributed to Hwang's time spent in china during the occupation

The main reason for such a foggy history of Korean arts has to deal with the occupation. Many of these arts were formed in the 1940's. After the Korean War, the Korean (south) government took measures to take back their culture. The Japanese pretty much would outlaw an occupied territories culture as part of its assimilation.

Many of the masters began to rename things or come up with alternate histories to their arts in an effort to become more "Koreanize".

Ultimately TKD won this marketing campaign and many of the Kwan unified under the name TKD.

Hwang did not. But He did do the best to Koreanize his art. He discovered a Korean military manual called the Mooyae Dobo Tangji. He read and this and one section in particular that went over hand to hand combat. By adding techniques from this section and translating the movements into new forms Whang renamed his art Soo Bahk Do. The name was taken from ancient text describing hand fighting as soo bahk. Hwang defined Soo Bakh as any form of empty handed fighting.

TSD MDK is pretty diverse at this point. In Korea it's pretty hard to find. In the US there are several international organizations. Some American schools that are not affiliated with any of the organizations are probably more representative of TSD in the past. The teachings are relatively unchanged since being past in from Korea. Whang's organizations while being his art, is probably much more evolved from where TSD was 50 years ago (I base this off my own observations in the US).

In general you could really describe TSD as Korean Karate. It's not the best definition, but to most people it will due.

Regarding Chuck Norris: Chuck learned TSD at Osan AFB in the mid 1960's. He was not the first to bring the art to the US, but he was the most famous.