Shotkans effectiveness

[juey palancu]

I experienced an opposite situation. A 2nd degree black belt in Tang Soo Do came to our dojo about 4 years ago, sparred and even our green belts had their way with him. We spar very hard though.

I guess its the person, no the art...

Oss,

Gero

[Menjo]

I experienced an opposite situation. A 2nd degree black belt in Tang Soo Do came to our dojo about 4 years ago, sparred and even our green belts had their way with him. We spar very hard though.

I guess its the person, no the art...

Oss,

Gero

Right and i think the art can change the person. Thats why i think lineage has some importance in MA.

[elbows_and_knees]

I don't think it's lineage so much so as training methods. You can come from an awesome lineage, but if the training methods are crap at your school, then you will still get owned. Lineage is not a good form of quality control.

[johnnymac]

You can come from an awesome lineage.

Is it me, or does the whole lineage thing seem to be kind of Shotokan specific. I mean most systems are like, oh yeah we're from that guy, but with Shotokan karateka they are like, well I am a 6th generation student twice removed directly under Funakoshi. LOL

Lineage is important, but it seems like it's overstressed in Shotokan.

I do agree with elbows and knees. Lineage is kind of secondary to training methods. I have seen some JKA guys who couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag. Reason being... poor training methods.

John

[juey palancu]

Hey, Goju-ryu stylists and (especially) Kyokushinkai stylists are obsessed with lineage, too.

But I agree. Training methods make or break the effectiveness of a martial artist. Coupled with emphasis on technique and strategy. I've seen many full-contact bangers get owned by technically profficient people with far less full-contact experience. I've also seen the opposite.

By the way, I saw a video the other day (in google videos, go look for it) of a Kyokushinkai-Tae Kwon Do full contact match, both black belts. The much larger Kyo stylist obviously had a lot of confidence in his body hardening and bang-away training. He left himself open a lot! Which was taken advantage of by the intially-nervous and much smaller TKD stylist, who after overcoming his obvious nervousness landed a crazy flying kick to his oponents face and knocked him out cold! If the guy had any technical soundness he should have been able to evade/block/redirect the flying kick and have an off-balance or floored opponent. Instead he banked on his 'toughness".

My grandfather always used to say: 'There are no exercises to grow muscles on the face"

Gero

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Nidan Traditional Shotokan

[juey palancu]

Hey,

I had never seen so much Shotokan-hate until I joined this forum. Man, I dont hate any styles, as long as they dont promote violent behavior.

why do people enjoy taking swipes at Shotokan?

Is it because it's very popular?

Gero

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Niden Traditional Shotokan

[Menjo]

Any art that gains popularity gains mcdojos, and critism. I dont mind anymore, but your right shotokan does get quite a bit of critque.

[Meguro]

Hey, Goju-ryu stylists and (especially) Kyokushinkai stylists are obsessed with lineage, too.

Not really, as far as Kyokushinkai goes as long as you belong to an official branch of IKO 1, 2, 3 you can be sure that your instructor has gone through the knock-down tournament training and competition. It's a weeding out process. First you have to be skilled and tough enough to go through the gauntlet, then you must have the interest and ability to teach. The tournaments are also a way of testing and disseminating new technique. The tough international competitions keep the instruction uniform and up to date. You can walk into a Kyokushinkai dojo in Russia, Canada, Brazil, Poland, and learn the same knock-down karate that they teach in Honbu.

Shotokan tries to be too many things and seems to be pulled in so many directions. I heard a Shotokan karateka recently lament that if you feed six marines a case of beer they can walk into the headquarters of any karate system and beat the pants off everyone. Maybe this is true for the JKA or ISKA honbu. What was his beef? That Shotokan doesn't prepare you to fight? From my understanding of Shotokan, and reading of many Shotokan karateka's posts there seems to be some confusion within the ranks. People who make kata and kihon and end rather than a means to an end cannot expect to have expertise in fighting. The Shotokan people who like to fight are limited by pads and point rules. You fight as you train, isn't that so? Nice kihon and quick tags probably won't mean much to a drunk marine, but is that the point of Shotokan?

[Tommy_P]

As for styel vs styel i wouldent get into that.I have seen great martal artes in many styels.But there are also bad marti artes in each styel.Ive seen a 5th dagree blacbelt in shotokan.Get decimated by a 16year old black belt in tangsoodo.The 5th dagree was much better with tecniqe.He was faste stronger and more fluent.but he still lost.y you say.becaue he dint know how to applly his abliity is combat.so i say dont worry about styel fide a quality instructor.who knows more than just the tecniqe.

I experienced an opposite situation. A 2nd degree black belt in Tang Soo Do came to our dojo about 4 years ago, sparred and even our green belts had their way with him. We spar very hard though.

I guess its the person, no the art...

The interesting thing about these two statements is the comparison between Tang Soo Do and Shotokan as style against style.

In actuality these two systems are the same. Tang Soo Do is just the Korean version of Shotokan as it's founder studied in Japan. They are almost exact.

So what we have here is actually a view of how two different "schools" train differently, not styles. Same system (pretty much) different instructors, individual training methods of a particular school.

Tommy

[johnnymac]

The interesting thing about these two statements is the comparison between Tang Soo Do and Shotokan as style against style.

In actuality these two systems are the same. Tang Soo Do is just the Korean version of Shotokan as it's founder studied in Japan. They are almost exact.

So what we have here is actually a view of how two different "schools" train differently, not styles. Same system (pretty much) different instructors, individual training methods of a particular school.

Tommy

They are close to the same, however the training methods are very different. Believe it or not, TSD seems to favor lower stances that Shotokan, as well as their kicking method is totally different...

I guess what I'm trying to say is that all because a system has virtually identical kata they can still be worlds different. Kind of goes back to the whole judging a book by its cover thing.

Now which one is write and which one is wrong? I have no idea. They are both good for certain individuals. And don't anyone say anything about well their linage... GURRRRRRRR

John