Shotkans effectiveness

[saishu]

Perhaps a tangent now, but relevant to the original topic.

Do you mean Funakoshi Yoshitaka's Shotokan, where the stances are stronger and deeper, the one that's closer to Azato's Shuri-te?

Actually, a real emphasis on "stronger and deeper" does not have much to do with Shuri-te at all.

I dont know if Azato's karate should really even be counted. Azato didn't contribute much to the development of Shotokan, since the first chance Azato had to get rid of Funakoshi he did and passed him off to Itosu. Personally I think Itosu had more impact that Azato. Sadly even Kenwa Mabuni had more impact on the development of Shotokan that Azato.

Tomo

[jion]

Although Funakoshi did train under Itosu, and he also adopted Itosu's style/changes, he did most of his training under Asato. Funakoshi Gichin's karate is largely that of Itosu, so you are correct. His training with Asato and Itosu totalled roughly 30-35 years, that's hardly getting rid of Funakoshi as soon as possible

Asato's style was stronger and had more of an offensive character than Itosu's. Rumours had it that, Funakoshi Yoshitaka and 10 other Shotokan karate-ka ended up in a friendly fight with So Nei Chi of Goju-Ryu. Supposedly Oyama witnessed this. All of the Shotokan people lost, and that influenced Yoshitika to "become a real fighter" (Oyama). At the time he because had all the say in the dojos at the various universities and changes Shotokan to what it has "mutated" to today.

Shorin Ryu's comment that it's not Shuri-Te is true, and I guess I didn't really express myself correctly, so sorry about that.

[Gen_Tora]

Sad thing is shotokan has been warped from day one, I know guys out here who don't know half of the stuff I do in shotokan, I'm only a shodan. Gichin Funakoshi said that 15 kata where enough for a life time, plus some of the older training methods have been lost due to commericalization of the art. A few sensei stick to the origional format & have produced great results.

I have also seen some school do really badly because they don't understand concept. Origionally shotokan training involved, makawara (fence post wrapped in rope or cord) training, exercises with clay pots to develop strength & grip (wieght lifting) & sparring the idea of semi-contact sparring was done because their were no pads used. So IMHO since we have pads how, full contact is the way to go. We used the semi-contact stuff at first but broke into full-contact back when I was in shotokan. I don't know what some of you do now, it depends mostly on the school.

Later,

Ron

[Jake90]

I feel like giving my two cents on the matter, so here they are.

Today was the first (and i hope last) time i am going to be in a real combat situation. My answer: Shotokan performed admirably. As i got off the bus a guy i've had a few run ins with before started to shove me about. He's quite big, about 6,2 against my 6,0 and pretty intimidating. Usually i try and keep my head down, but today he had a mate with him and was clearly looking for a fight.

So, he shoved me a few times and i told him in no uncertain terms to back the hell off. He didn't like this and took a swing at my head. Panicking slightly (yep, i was pretty darn scared) i threw up a block before counter attacking with a kekomi to his head. It was no where near perfect, i should have dropped my hip in more and been more upright but even so his head snapped back (im pretty sure his noe's was broken) before collapsing on the floor.

At this stage i came to my senses and tried to make a break for it. Unfortunatly his mate was too quick and tripped me as i tried to run, sending me sprawling to the floor. I rolled to my feet and kicked him mae geri so he doubled over, before grabbing his ears and slammed my knee into his face, heian yondan style. Finally i was able to get away.

Whilst i may be seeing these events through adrenaline hazed glasses (this being less then three hours ago) i felt that Shotokan performed admirably, and i think it would against any unarmed, untrained attacker. Anyway, just my two cents.

[ravenzoom]

Good post, nice to see everything went well. Just make sure to becareful next time, they might try to get back at you.

[Traditional-Fist]

I feel like giving my two cents on the matter, so here they are.

Today was the first (and i hope last) time i am going to be in a real combat situation. My answer: Shotokan performed admirably. As i got off the bus a guy i've had a few run ins with before started to shove me about. He's quite big, about 6,2 against my 6,0 and pretty intimidating. Usually i try and keep my head down, but today he had a mate with him and was clearly looking for a fight.

So, he shoved me a few times and i told him in no uncertain terms to back the hell off. He didn't like this and took a swing at my head. Panicking slightly (yep, i was pretty darn scared) i threw up a block before counter attacking with a kekomi to his head. It was no where near perfect, i should have dropped my hip in more and been more upright but even so his head snapped back (im pretty sure his noe's was broken) before collapsing on the floor.

At this stage i came to my senses and tried to make a break for it. Unfortunatly his mate was too quick and tripped me as i tried to run, sending me sprawling to the floor. I rolled to my feet and kicked him mae geri so he doubled over, before grabbing his ears and slammed my knee into his face, heian yondan style. Finally i was able to get away.

Whilst i may be seeing these events through adrenaline hazed glasses (this being less then three hours ago) i felt that Shotokan performed admirably, and i think it would against any unarmed, untrained attacker. Anyway, just my two cents.

Great post. I just want to add that Shotokan and YOU performed admirably. Just becareful because as ravenzoom said they may come back for seconds, and if they do then give them more of the same, just watch out for sucker punches and weapons, etc.

[Gyte]

So, he shoved me a few times and i told him in no uncertain terms to back the hell off. He didn't like this and took a swing at my head. Panicking slightly (yep, i was pretty darn scared) i threw up a block before counter attacking with a kekomi to his head. It was no where near perfect, i should have dropped my hip in more and been more upright but even so his head snapped back (im pretty sure his noe's was broken) before collapsing on the floor.

I didn't quite understand this part. You blocked his punch and counter attacked with a yoko geri kekomi to his head???

If you blocked his punch, than I expect that you were standing very close to your opponent. Kicking a taller opponent to the head is very difficult then.

[johnnymac]

Usually it's not the style that resolves a fight. It's usually the person who is using it who makes it work. Some people have come to my class knowing Shotokan and they couldn't even take a hit, then some of the other Shotokan guys have done well. It all comes down to the individual.

[Jake90]

So, he shoved me a few times and i told him in no uncertain terms to back the hell off. He didn't like this and took a swing at my head. Panicking slightly (yep, i was pretty darn scared) i threw up a block before counter attacking with a kekomi to his head. It was no where near perfect, i should have dropped my hip in more and been more upright but even so his head snapped back (im pretty sure his noe's was broken) before collapsing on the floor.

I didn't quite understand this part. You blocked his punch and counter attacked with a yoko geri kekomi to his head???

If you blocked his punch, than I expect that you were standing very close to your opponent. Kicking a taller opponent to the head is very difficult then.

I disagree. Being about a meter from the guy it really wasn't that hard. Obviously my leg wasn't fully straigtened, but i honestly did have any difficulty. Maybe you should try some hip exercises to loosen them off it your having trouble with your side kicks.

What would be the point of any karate move if it was ineffectual as a counter? It's just simply not true that it is difficult, infact in our style of shotokan we use a Kekomi as a counter to another kekomi in Kion Ippon, if it didn't work then we wouldnt do it!

[Gen_Tora]

I'm just amazed you even tried to kick that high, unless he was a miget, a groin or knee shot would have been even more effective lol. Course I'd have been jabbing the eyes & following up with elbows to the temple & so on. So I may not be the best person to give advise, lol.