Karate defence against BJJ

[AndrewGreen]

I'm not going to disagree with this, as it's accuarate, but:

If some one tucks there head in and rushes in to clinch, wouldn't you as a striker who is in clinch range:

I think he means he moves as you are hitting him, messing up your perfect alignment, becuase that target is in a different place, at a different angle, and moving towards you....

[SubGrappler]

I'm not going to disagree with this, as it's accuarate, but:

If some one tucks there head in and rushes in to clinch, wouldn't you as a striker who is in clinch range:

A: Foucus on body shots to the kidney area

Sure its possible, but when I say "rush in and clinch" Im talking about from a close distance. At best, a striker is going to get a chance for one good shot. This does not mean hes only able to throw one attack, it just means hes only able to throw one good attack. A clinch and a shot attempt are executed from the same range as punches and kicks are, and they are often setup.

Now something like body shots is often something thats reserved for wearing your opponent down and not so much knocking him out (not to say that it doesnt happen). Someone clinching is going to be covering up in anticipation of blows, so most will end up hitting his guard. In the event you manage to hit him, you've got to do it hard enough that you knock him out, which is going to be rather difficult.

B: Uppercut him

Uppercuts are usually set up from within the clinch. As was stated, no one is going to run in at you like a bull from 10 feet away. The chances of someone throwing a successfull uppercut precisely at the time the other tries to clinch is almost in the same boat as claiming you'll simply knee/kick the person in the head when they attempt to shoot in for a takedown. Once again, its possible, but once again, your opponent is also covering up. An uppercut will still most likely hit his guard and elbows which will most likely not succeed in knocking him out or detering him from finishing for the takedown.

C: If he's under your arms instead of over them, grab his head/neck and knee the body, or the head if possible (this would cause one to risk loosing balance tho, and may end up in submission)

If hes under your arms, he has an underhooks situation which gives him far greater control over you than you over him. I demonstrated this on my brother who literally weighs twice as much as me, yet when I have underhooks and he has overhooks, Im in control.

What you're referring to is often called a "thai clinch" since Muay Thai is what made it popular. Fighters often get there when their opponent has a weak posture and isnt close to your hips. For example. Wanderlei Silva uses this clinch often in MMA, but he uses it often when people attempt to shoot for a takedown on him. After sprawling out and creating distance between his hips and his opponent, he'll THEN proceed to grab the head and look for knee strikes. To make effective use of this clinch, it requires that your hips are kept far from your opponent (watch when someone throws knees in MMA from this clinch- they'll pull the head down, walk their hips back, and then deliver the knees). As you can see, theres a great deal of technique required to both get to this position and use it effectively. Only after defending the initial clinch and takedown attempt do you see fighters like Silva utilize this method of attack.

D: All of the above, create enough distance to uppercut by utilizing body hooks to get in an upper cut, then after landing the upper cut grab his head and pull it into a knee

Possible, but your opponent is going to have his agenda too. To do all those things on a trained fighter is going to be quite difficult- you cant plan too far ahead in a fight, because you never know what your opponent will do.

[SubGrappler]

warlock, how do you define useless? You mean as in breaking the knuckle, or as in weakening the fist?

I would argue that there is easily over a half century of evidence that the "punishments" of toughning the knuckles are quite effective.

It makes the knuckles much tougher, no doubt, but the second century of evidence would show an awful lot of arthritis.

[y2_sub]

A good offence is the best defense against BJJ

[lgm]

Because without the gloves, you'd break your hands. Wrap them up, glove them up and you can hit a lot harder, which bounce the brain around a lot more, which does more damage.

I can understand how wrapping the hands can protect the hands from impact injury by promoting the rigidity of the finger joints and wrist, but I cannot understand how it can make you hit harder. Hitting harder depends on the acceleration of the punching arm, putting the body mass behind your punch, rotating or vibrating the hips and other biomechanical motions needed to achieve maximum acceleration of the punch.

You're missing one thing as well- surface area. When comparing the impact of something, you need to take into account its surface area and that of the target. This is why when you swing a knife it cuts, but when you swing a flapjack (a handheld lead filled piece of leather about the size of a knife) it knocks people out. The same is said when comparing a baseball bat with a samurai sword.

No, I'm not missing the surface area variable in my explanation. The surface area of the target hit doesn't have any effect on total net force of your punch, strike or kick. In other words, the surface area of the target hit will not increase the force of your blow. The discussion was how force of the blow is increased and not its damaging effect, so there was no reason to bring it in. Certainly damage effect cannot be excluded in any discussion of punching, striking or kicking, but that was not the issue in the previous exchange.

Now to discuss the variable of the damage effect. This is dependent on the surface area of the target hit and the contact area of the hitting force. If the resiliency characteristics of two areas is held constant or the same, e.g. similar body area (skin, muscles and bones taken together) and the force of the blow is also constant, then the damage effect will depend on the dimension of the area hit and that of the area hitting.

A smaller area compared to a larger area hit of the same resiliency by a smaller area of a hitting force as compared to a larger one of the same force, there will be a greater penetration of the force by the smaller hitting force area on the smaller hit area than a larger hitting force area on a larger area hit. This is because the force is focused on a smaller point and not spread and dissipated across a larger area.

In your example, this is the reason why the sword or samurai will cut while the flapjack or baseball bat will not. The hitting area of the sword or samurai is smaller or thinner than that of the flapjack or baseball bat and the body surface area hit by the former is smaller while that of the latter is larger.

I don't think we disagree. I was just trying to explain the difference between the force generated by a blow which is caused by variables independent of and not affected by the surface area hit as against the actual damage effect of the blow that must depend also on the surface area hit.

[lgm]

No, it's a result of the hand being made up of many small bones.

Just because the hand is made up of many small bones doesn't necessarily mean it is will break or get damaged when you punch. However, it is true that it has basic structural weakness unless it is welded together and transformed into a rigid, inelastic tool when executing a powerful punch.

What damages a punching fist or hand are the bad alignment of the hand and wrist, inadequate rigidity that results from a tighter held fist, and hitting the target with the wrong knuckles not aligned with the arm and wrist at the point of impact.

[lgm]

But breaking your hand is the result of bad alignment on impact or hitting with the wrong knuckles on the hand - not from hitting hard.

...3. The target you initially wanted to hit (the jaw, front of the face) is no longer in the same spot- rather you've got a hard forehead and dome of the skull in the way.

At this point, you either make contact with the forehead or dome of the skull while you're throwing full force- Something needs to give to absorb the impact of the blow- its bone on bone. I guarentee you his head isnt going to break.

This possible scenario that can unexpectedly damage your punching fist can indeed happen. So, one must learn how to align his fist wrist and elbows, clench his fist tight and hit with the two foreknuckles at the point of impact. This can only be achieved through practice on hitting hard targets like the makiwara regularly, so as to condition and strengthen the punching arm and fist and preclude possible injury when you accidentally hit a hard bone instead of a soft muscle or cartilage. Periodically punching boards, tiles and blocks to test one's immunity to self-damage when accidentally punching hard bones of the opponent may be done under one's discretion.

[SenseiMike]

Wow this post is covering a boat load of topics

Alltho I agree with y2_sub 99% of the time, focusing too much on offense against a seasoned grappler will leave your self open to a take down.

when fighting a grappler you have keep a constant distance between them and your center-line. Fighting them from a sideways facing stance, and keeping your angles is the best defense.

[AndrewGreen]

Fighting them from a sideways facing stance, and keeping your angles is the best defense.

Not a good idea as this presents a single leg takedown as a gift and leaves you know way to effectively sprawl.

You should keep pretty squared off if you want to defend takedowns.

[SenseiMike]

a single leg take down just should not happen to a seasoned martial artist, to a kick boxer yes, but not to a seasoned martial artist.