Karate defence against BJJ

[SubGrappler]

Because without the gloves, you'd break your hands. Wrap them up, glove them up and you can hit a lot harder, which bounce the brain around a lot more, which does more damage.

I can understand how wrapping the hands can protect the hands from impact injury by promoting the rigidity of the finger joints and wrist, but I cannot understand how it can make you hit harder. Hitting harder depends on the acceleration of the punching arm, putting the body mass behind your punch, rotating or vibrating the hips and other biomechanical motions needed to achieve maximum acceleration of the punch.

You're missing one thing as well- surface area. When comparing the impact of something, you need to take into account its surface area and that of the target. This is why when you swing a knife it cuts, but when you swing a flapjack (a handheld lead filled piece of leather about the size of a knife) it knocks people out. The same is said when comparing a baseball bat with a samurai sword. Lets assume Im wearing a helmut that's going to protect me from the fatal wound of a sword. You swing the samurai sword at my head, and then follow up with the Louisville Slugger- which is going to have a better chance of knocking me out? These are extreme comparisons, but you get at what Im saying.

Gloves are an advantage towards the strikers, and any fighter that would insist on not wearing a pair of the 4 oz ones they give you when you step into the ring is not a very intelligent one.

I'd advise you to pick up a pair of these gloves whenever you get the chance. Seriously people, the gloves are FOUR OUNCES- they're not the rock em' sock em' pillow punchers you pick up at the mall.

Try to find someone to spar with, full contact, with and without the gloves and I'll guarentee you that you'll start fighting with the gloves on.

You can use a bunch of tactics to avoid being taken down...jump, use angles, etc..

Jump?

Edited October 3, 2005 by SubGrappler

[AndrewGreen]

Go beyond the first one to where some started wearing gloves, it was the hardest hitters and guys that got the most KO's that where wearing gloves.

Cuts and bleeding go down though, making it more tv friendly, but harder on the insides.

[24fightingchickens]

Because without the gloves, you'd break your hands. Wrap them up, glove them up and you can hit a lot harder, which bounce the brain around a lot more, which does more damage.

No, I don't think so. I have hit lots of things with my hands, including parts of the human head while fighting, and I have never broken my hands. I think it is becuase I know how to align my wrist and have long years of training that helps me do that in real time when hitting something. I have no trouble hitting something that has any give to it with my bare knuckles as hard as I can hit. My experience does not jibe with your opinion, so I disagree.

Also, I can do a lot more damage with my raw knuckle not being cushioned by a pad. If I put a pad over my knuckles, I am not hitting any harder with my arm and shoulder muscles, but now the impact surface is cushioned?

If I believed this backwards logic, I would also have to believe that eating a chocolate cake would make me lose weight.

Even the ancient greeks protected there hands when boxing, and later on that protection involved inserting metal rivets into the protection.

Protecting your hands also equals protecting your opponent. It allows for knock out blows that don't break jaws.

Not true. By using gloves, you increase the surface area of the punch, which actually gives you a better chance of knocking someone out.

Any striker who trains in some form of MMA or full contact knows full well the reasons for using the gloves.

I have some training in jujutsu to accentuate my karate skills. While I am no jujutsu expert, we did not wrap our hands while practicing. We needed them fully free in order to apply various grabs, locks, and such on our opponents.

Im serious when I tell you to go rent a UFC video (suggest the first one for this debate) and watch how many fighters will break their hands when they start throwing.

All that proves is that the guys in the UFC are unskilled brutes who rely more upon their inherent mean-ness and a certain quality of having nothing to lose by being brutalized over a weekend. I've only seen one karate player break a hand in my lifetime of training. It requires quite a bit of clumsiness for a karate expert to throw a punch that results in their hand being broken. Especially after having pounded a makiwara for decades bare knuckle.

From watching the UFC, and I have, the image I am left with is one of very sloppy fighters who are much tougher than I am, but who lack anything approaching any kind of striking technical ability.

I also note that the modern day karate community is almost nerotically concerned about the possibilities of going to the ground. The chances that you will be attacked by a BJJ person are very low. In my experience, my fights have not ended up on the ground. I hit, they have dropped. I don't understand how these guys manage to hit each other so much without knocking anyone over. I once was punched in the ribs, one snapped, and the nerve shock put me on the floor instantly. I wonder what the difference is between the UFC, and my own experience in hitting people?

Because lord knows I am the last one to say Shotokan is so great and it made me into some kind of warrior. I'm just an insecure geek with a nerdy hobby as far as I am concerned. But the few times I have been in a pinch, I have gotten through it OK without rolling around on the ground.

The last guy that ran at me like a football player I treated just like I learned to in football and I decked him. I don't understand why everyone is so concerned about shooting attackers - unless they never played American Football and don't know how to handle a lineman coming in low.

Edited October 3, 2005 by 24fightingchickens

[AndrewGreen]

"All that proves is that the guys in the UFC are bad punchers. I've only seen one karate player break a hand in my lifetime of training."

Or that they, as professional athletes and fighters, know how to hit harder then the karate guys you've met.

[24fightingchickens]

Or that they, as professional athletes and fighters, know how to hit harder then the karate guys you've met.

I hope they can hit harder than I can. I'm a middle aged Dad doing karate for fun these days. I have trouble swatting my dog on the rear to get her out of my chair.

But breaking your hand is the result of bad alignment on impact or hitting with the wrong knuckles on the hand - not from hitting hard. Human bodies don't offer much resistance to cause a break in the hand on most target points. Maybe some of these guys need calcium, and the rest wear gloves because the corporation that sponsors the event insisted on it for insurance reasons.

[AndrewGreen]

No, it's a result of the hand being made up of many small bones.

[SubGrappler]

But breaking your hand is the result of bad alignment on impact or hitting with the wrong knuckles on the hand - not from hitting hard.

Ah ha!

Take a combination of things when you throw a punch- your opponent is moving- he has his chin tucked, decreasing your area for a good punch or he may even lower his head and trying to run at you like a bull.

Now, you're not trying to hit the top of his head but:

1: You end up throwing a hard punch with intentions of knocking him out

2: Your opponent decides to drop his head down and force a clinch (you're opponent's got his agenda and gameplan too).

3. The target you initially wanted to hit (the jaw, front of the face) is no longer in the same spot- rather you've got a hard forehead and dome of the skull in the way.

At this point, you either make contact with the forehead or dome of the skull while you're throwing full force- Something needs to give to absorb the impact of the blow- its bone on bone. I guarentee you his head isnt going to break.

or

You try to correct your punch halfway through to make contact with his face. The result is that your shoulder, elbow, and wrist are no longer aligned since you threw a cockeyed punch. With the misalignment, once again something has to give in order to absorb the blow- the very small bones in your wrist are the most likely to give before your elbow, shoulder, hands, or your opponents face.

[SenseiMike]

But breaking your hand is the result of bad alignment on impact or hitting with the wrong knuckles on the hand - not from hitting hard.

Ah ha!

Take a combination of things when you throw a punch- your opponent is moving- he has his chin tucked, decreasing your area for a good punch or he may even lower his head and trying to run at you like a bull.

Now, you're not trying to hit the top of his head but:

1: You end up throwing a hard punch with intentions of knocking him out

2: Your opponent decides to drop his head down and force a clinch (you're opponent's got his agenda and gameplan too).

3. The target you initially wanted to hit (the jaw, front of the face) is no longer in the same spot- rather you've got a hard forehead and dome of the skull in the way.

At this point, you either make contact with the forehead or dome of the skull while you're throwing full force- Something needs to give to absorb the impact of the blow- its bone on bone. I guarentee you his head isnt going to break.

or

You try to correct your punch halfway through to make contact with his face. The result is that your shoulder, elbow, and wrist are no longer aligned since you threw a cockeyed punch. With the misalignment, once again something has to give in order to absorb the blow- the very small bones in your wrist are the most likely to give before your elbow, shoulder, hands, or your opponents face.

I'm not going to disagree with this, as it's accuarate, but:

If some one tucks there head in and rushes in to clinch, wouldn't you as a striker who is in clinch range:

A: Foucus on body shots to the kidney area

B: Uppercut him

C: If he's under your arms instead of over them, grab his head/neck and knee the body, or the head if possible (this would cause one to risk loosing balance tho, and may end up in submission)

D: All of the above, create enough distance to uppercut by utilizing body hooks to get in an upper cut, then after landing the upper cut grab his head and pull it into a knee

[White Warlock]

Well, i'll tell ya, i agree and disagree with all the comments presented about the gloves/no gloves issue. Let me see if i can break it down to the arguments:

• 1. more surface area - the argument presented is that more surface area increases the likelihood that a vital target will be hit. One problem with this argument is that the 'additional' surface area is secondary, or buffered... not merely by the glove, but by not being 'directly behind' the impact area. The other problem with this argument is that 'more surface area' translates to 'less' pounds pressure per square inch.
   
  2. padding buffers a strike - the argument presented here is that the padding decreases the damage posed by a strike, as it acts like a shock absorber, or buffer. This is true, to an extent. There is still the reverberation, or rebound of the padding that adds a little extra kick to the strike, but this is minimal. The real difference has not been presented and that is... psychological.

The reality is, if you take your unpadded fist and strike a rock, you will hit it with less force than you would if you wore a glove. That is because you 'know' that you will obtain damage by doing so... so you 'hold back.' By wearing a glove, the fighter is more likely to use full force. He is no longer hampered by the power of the mind saying, "don't do it!"

That, my fellow practitioners, is the main reason why wearing gloves allows for more powerful punches.

Now, saying that, many karate practitioners have worked diligently to build up their tolerance to the potential pain associated with injuring the hand, and some have even subjected themselves to archaic punishments to build up calloused, and eventually useless, knuckles. Indeed, there are even a few that have worked very hard to 'ignore' the warning signals presented by the mind, and thus are able to use full force and subject their hands to injury, despite the common sense of the subconscious mind.

But, all the training in the world cannot prevent your opponent from shifting on you. That means, your target can change against your will... and you could put all the force you can muster to strike a vital area, only to find that you hit a wall of bone.

[SenseiMike]

warlock, how do you define useless? You mean as in breaking the knuckle, or as in weakening the fist?

I would argue that there is easily over a half century of evidence that the "punishments" of toughning the knuckles are quite effective.