Karate defence against BJJ

[Hitman]

To SubGrappler- thanks for your assessment and telling me about the schools in my area. I enjoy debates like this a LOT- especially if done in a respectful manner like you have.

The problem I have with your remarks is that you are almost saying that BJJ is the "Ultimate Martial Art." Paraphrasing the old line in Billy Jack- I am gonna shoot your legs and there is nothing you can do about it. I do have friends that take Brazilian style jujitsu and others that are actual wrestlers (like college and such) and we do get together and spar and generally "mess around" learning from each other. When we are done with such a session, there are a lot of bruises on them and my joints are generally a LOT more stretched out than they previously were- in other words, sometimes I win, and sometimes I eat mat. That's how it works. I have, however, started wearing 2 (doubled up) knee pads on my left knee because I was leaving large red knots on people's foreheads.

I think your comments are from the point of view of a grappler- I especially like the one about him actually HITTING you. People tend to forget that grapplers do not JUST ground fight. The problem with that is that I believe (remember this is opinion only) that since grappling schools teach grappling, you are going to be more worried about grappling techniques than stand-up fighting techniques. In other words, if you are sparring, and someone starts a clinch, you are going to do what you hae been taught- defend that clinch, reverse the hold, etc...grapple the guy back. You are doing what comes naturally as you have been taught. When I see someone starting a clinch, I am going to defend it in MY way- ie, a punch, kick, knee, throw, etc. Not that a grappler is not trained to deal with this, I am saying that...

OK, darn it this is getting wordy and run-on. I am saying that what you do may be blazing fast- as in shooting the legs, double leg take down, whatever you like to call it. I am saying that what I do is also blazing fast- I can throw a front kick in about the time it takes you to blink. What you said about the grappler seeing that if a shoot is not possible, he can go into a clinch or whatever...that is also true of other Martial Arts. if i see you begin a clinch, I can move out of it, I can back off when i think you might shoot, etc. I have seen that if both people sparring are about the same training level, it all depends on who makes a mistake first- no duh right? If I get lazy with my footwork or fall to a particularly good feignt, I am down eating mat. If the grappler gets too close with guard held too low, or shoots a little slowly or if he shoots short (doesn't quite get there as I step back) then he ends up with little red spots on his face and chest.

It's all a matter of exact instances. We cannot go through each and every possibility that can occur druing a sparring session. I am simply saying that I certainly CAN do something about being grappled. Maybe not if it is the head instructor at the school or Royce Gracie himself, but I don't think I'll be fighting them anytime soon. Your take??

[SubGrappler]

The problem I have with your remarks is that you are almost saying that BJJ is the "Ultimate Martial Art." Paraphrasing the old line in Billy Jack- I am gonna shoot your legs and there is nothing you can do about it.

Its not that BJJ or grappling in general is the "Ultimate Martial Art" but more along the lines of they know best how to defeat their own moves. The old adage "I'll just kick them in the face before they grab my legs" has been used many times, but it simply has not proven effective in over hundreds of mixed martial arts shows when it was attempted by standup fighters who said that very same thing.

There certainly is something to do about when a grappler shoots at your legs- you sprawl out. When he attempts to regain his feet, you go to a Thai clinch and throw a knee into his face ala Vanderlei Silva. Not only do you lose energy and miss the takedown, but he makes you pay for missing the takedown by landing a heavy knee.

I do have friends that take Brazilian style jujitsu and others that are actual wrestlers (like college and such) and we do get together and spar and generally "mess around" learning from each other. When we are done with such a session, there are a lot of bruises on them and my joints are generally a LOT more stretched out than they previously were- in other words, sometimes I win, and sometimes I eat mat. That's how it works. I have, however, started wearing 2 (doubled up) knee pads on my left knee because I was leaving large red knots on people's foreheads.

If you're actually managing to hit your opponents in the head with a knee as they shoot in, I'd have to question their wrestling. Beyond that is a more important question though- does this knee to the face stop the takedown?

I think your comments are from the point of view of a grappler- I especially like the one about him actually HITTING you. People tend to forget that grapplers do not JUST ground fight. The problem with that is that I believe (remember this is opinion only) that since grappling schools teach grappling, you are going to be more worried about grappling techniques than stand-up fighting techniques. In other words, if you are sparring, and someone starts a clinch, you are going to do what you hae been taught- defend that clinch, reverse the hold, etc...grapple the guy back. You are doing what comes naturally as you have been taught.

Absolutely agree there- the problem, as you said, is people who think that a grappler is only allowed to grapple. I was reminded of a time when my instructor took a kung fu fighter up on a challenge that he couldnt be taken down. After he easily took him down, the kung fu fighter natrually demanded a rematch (they always do.....) and took up a very low stance with his arms down to defend his legs from a shot attempt. My instructor started to creep in, and proceeded to wind up and slap the hell out of the guys face, which surrised him rather well.

When I see someone starting a clinch, I am going to defend it in MY way- ie, a punch, kick, knee, throw, etc. Not that a grappler is not trained to deal with this, I am saying that...

Its not the question of whether you're going to start throwing strikes or not, but rather from where it is that you're going to throw them. The clinch is a grappling position as opposed to a striking position. Much like the ground, the effectiveness of your strikes depends heavily on the position you have on your opponent. If you do not know how to move/proceed on the ground (or in this case, the clinch) you'll often find yourself going from a bad position to one even worse.

For example, if you start throwing punches at the head with reckless abandon, you're going to allow your opponent to get double underhooks unless you somehow know how to defend that position. Once there, he has control over you, your weight, and your balance- all of which you need in order to strike effectively.

Dont take this as saying that striking is not effective in the clinch or shouldnt be used. It has proven very effective and has been a route to many peoples victories, however there are times when striking techniques are appropriate and grappling techniques are appropriate. In the instance of a clinch, you need basic grappling skills to know how to fight in the clinch rather than just fighting with your heart.

OK, darn it this is getting wordy and run-on. I am saying that what you do may be blazing fast- as in shooting the legs, double leg take down, whatever you like to call it. I am saying that what I do is also blazing fast- I can throw a front kick in about the time it takes you to blink.

Im not debating how fast or how hard you can kick- I've seen many people who were rather exceptional when it came to fighting on their feet, but theres a difference between initiating and reacting.

Whoever initiates is going to have the odds slightly in his favor. This of course changes if the move performed is done so poorly, or if the opponent is anticipating the move.

A shot is done when one is close enough to touch his opponent. Contrary to popular belief, shots should not be attempted if you can not reach your opponent with your hand. This distance is often deemed too far and a waste of energy. The mere physics of it are impossible- your weight is situated across both your feet. You have to shift your weight to one side of your body, prime your attack, and manage to kick your leg out to meet your opponent before he can cover less than two feet of space when he initiated the move. Not only that, but you have to mange to hit him and hit him hard enough to stop his momentum and either knock him out or knock him senseless. This simply is not a good move to rely on based on percentages.

What you said about the grappler seeing that if a shoot is not possible, he can go into a clinch or whatever...that is also true of other Martial Arts. if i see you begin a clinch, I can move out of it, I can back off when i think you might shoot, etc.

Possible, but there are variables. Generally, a striker is going to attempt to knock a fighter out on his feet. At the moment one commits to a strike, if it is successfully blocked (as many fighters will cover up when attempting a clinch) there is that brief moment when the clinch is going to have to be addressed, and breaking free from the clinch is neither a difficult thing nor an easy thing, but it is still something that needs to be practiced just like every other technique in your arsenal.

The clinch is a relatively easy thing to force in a fight- I've never seen a fighter successfully defend against someone trying to clinch. This does not mean that people are always taken to the ground, or that they even manage to hold the clinch for an extended period of time, but rather that they can get there far easier than their opponent can keep them from doing it. Even a fighter such a Mirko Cro Cop, who has absolutely amazing grappling defense (and striking skills), still has to fight to break free of the clinch when fighters grab him.

This is the reason why traditional striking arts (and striking arts in general) did so poorly in the early days of MMA. It wasnt because the grapplers are more talented or because they trained in a superior martial art. It was because they (the grapplers) knew their opponents didnt know anything about fighting in the clinch, whereas they spent a great deal of time training there. They'd force a clinch, get the mismatch, and take the fight to the ground.

Now that everyone crosstrains, both striking and grappling art just as important in a fight, and anyone who neglects either will most likely pay dearly for it in their fights.

I am simply saying that I certainly CAN do something about being grappled. Maybe not if it is the head instructor at the school or Royce Gracie himself, but I don't think I'll be fighting them anytime soon. Your take??

Of course you can- there are always variables in a fight, but just because you find a technique that has worked in the past against a mediocre opponent doesnt mean its the right one. If you train for the worst case scenario, the best things will happen for you. Imagine that you're training for a guy who HAS a good shot and good setups (such as a skilled wrestler) where a sprawl is a much better option. Just the same would be for me to assume Im fighting a striker I cant take down and who has superb hands- the more I work my hands, the better my chances of surviving on my feet.

Let me try to give you an example. I dont know how much you know about grappling positions and submissions, but in grappling events, it is considered a beginners mistake to attack someone from inside the guard (these are grappling events- no striking) with chokes or armlocks, since you actual open yourself up for the very same attacks back, which your opponent (despite being on his back) is in a better position to apply. So, assume you're in a grappling match and you stand up and throw a choke on someone from inside his guard, he taps out, and you win your division- the technique worked for you then, but an intelligent fighter would fix his mistake for when he fights someone who knows what they're doing from their back, he'll find that same technique that seemed to work so well fail miserably.

[Hitman]

Man, you bring up some excellent examples, and I cannot argue with many of your points. It's like someone off the streets asking "what can I do about a side kick without knowing how to throw a decent block." This whole subject has way too many variables to deal with every individual case.

Your mentioning the sprawl brought this up. It is one of the few defenses I know that works well and in many different scenarios, though that would be hard to try to explain to someone who knows nothing of wrestling and doesn't actually want to train in grappling.

Since you obviously know quite a bit about submission wrestling or some grappling art, and I know quite a bit about stand-up fighting can we come up with something fairly simple that will explain to the original poster that will work against, say...a grappler with midrange training and skills and work more than half the time?? I can find no way to help this guy without describing about a hundred different situations and going into nuances.

Let me ask you this question then...if you are fighting a stand-up fighter who is half-way good, what do you fear? Do you fear the sprawl out most? Or getting a straight jab while going into a clinch or what??

[SubGrappler]

To be quite honost, the very moment you're trying to force the clinch is the point where you're vunerable. I'm covering up when I go in, so the chances of me being knocked out are slim.

Basically that means Im worried about the sprawl because it shows my opponent has knowledge of ground fighting. Not only that, but if hes defended well (say with a front headlock) then once again Im in trouble either from knees from the front headlock position, or when I try to regain my feet.

Its easy to brave your way through a couple of strikes if you're assured you can get the fight to the ground. If you dont know if you can get the fight to the ground, the worst part is getting tired as you attempt the takedowns. Getting tired makes you lazy, and getting lazy gets you knocked out.