Karate defence against BJJ

[SubGrappler]

But I think if more karate students trained in a way that resembled real fighting, then you'd see the style as more competitive in that arena. That's all I've been saying.

We're not debating that- in fact thats exactly what we're saying. People train in ways that are detached from reality. For instance, learning how to defend against a double leg when no one you know has the ability to do so. Its like learning to defend a punch from an untrained brawler who telegraphs and swings wide- it feels fine until I go against a boxer who knows what hes doing an I get knocked out because his punches are quick, setup, and straight.

This:

when fighting a grappler you have keep a constant distance between them and your center-line. Fighting them from a sideways facing stance, and keeping your angles is the best defense.

And This:

a single leg take down just should not happen to a seasoned martial artist, to a kick boxer yes, but not to a seasoned martial artist.

Are what disturbs us.

Karate stances are effective for karate-kas only , it takes years for a karate-ka to master his stances , you do not expect from a wrestler to spend years in stance training that may or may not work

Most likely the stance wont work. You wouldnt expect a wrestler to come out in a 3 points stance when hes in a fight. He can in a wrestling match because theres no strikes, just as theres no takedowns in karate.

As far as it taking too long to train in, many wrestlers wrestle for more than 10 years and still practice their basic techniques (singles and doubles, pummeling drill, ankle picks, etc) once their in college, so I doubt this is the reason why they dont use stancework from karate.

[Jussi Häkkinen]

He can in a wrestling match because theres no strikes, just as theres no takedowns in karate.

Karate has a whole lot of takedowns. They are trained on a regular basis at any dojo that teaches Okinawan karate - if the teacher knows his style well.

Okinawan karate is not just kicking, punching and blocking. It's locking, throwing and groundwork as well.

[Ego Assassin]

I've said it before and I'll say it again CROSSTRAIN if there are other schools in your area stop making excuses why you shouldn't better yourself take advantage of the information offered. Martial arts nowadays are seperated by names and the way we train and whether or not we will or can fight on the ground. Fact is they all come from the same place, but so and so wanted to do things his way and some 17 year old black belt wanted his own school and everyone wants to do it their way and stuff gets divided. When the Samurai went into battle, if you cross reference you will find that grappling determined the outcome of one on one battles and that they were known to throw horses to the ground.

[Jussi Häkkinen]

I've said it before and I'll say it again CROSSTRAIN

..or then not, if all you need is already included in one system.

[White Warlock]

I will say this time and time again, i have found no karate practitioner that utilized his KARATE to present strong groundwork. Invariably they incorporated other styles, be it judo, wrestling, sambo or another... but there are no karate systems that provide inherent substantial coverage or training in groundwork.

In fact, consider this. For 100 years Kano jujutsu (judo) dominated the Japanese martial arts community, with its very strong display of takedowns and groundwork, provided primarily because of the 'way' in which they practiced, rather than the material they covered. They covered pretty much the same material that most all the other jujutsu schools covered, but they took out the lethal acts so they could practice full-on to be able to better condition themselves.

Now consider this. Gracie jujutsu (Bjj) has since repeatedly demonstrated superior groundwork, yet they were birthed from judo. It is because of judo's initial approach that bjj had a strong foundation to develop. The Gracies focused on groundwork, developing and incorporating other ground-related arts to strengthen its repertoire. Yet, in all this, the difference is in the conditioning. A poorly conditioned bjj practitioner will still quickly and easily lose to a well conditioned judoist.

Now, presenting this info... consider that these two arts put a significant amount of attention into groundwork and the development of their grappling skills. Yet that is not enough. Because of the way they practice, the full-on means in which they interact when drilling, they are far better conditioned and far more 'in tune' with what needs to be done on the ground. It is not merely 'techniques' that they've developed, but the 'principles' behind these techniques. Because of this, they don't merely go through the motions... they improvise, adapt, and eventually overcome.

Let's try not to deceive ourselves on these issues. It is essential we maintain a firm grasp of our limitations, within our arts and within the manner we condition ourselves in our respective arts, lest those limitations be exploited.

Edited October 10, 2005 by White Warlock

[Ego Assassin]

All you need against who? People can say they train on the ground but knowing an armbar and saying you grapple is like doing a jab and saying you box. Unless you spend at least two years on the ground (BJJ) you'll get slaughtered by grapplers in general.

[Ego Assassin]

I WOULD like to know when and where have BJJer's been jumping out of the bushes attacking people? The only reasons these discussions take place is fear of the unknown. The only reason a person should train BJJ is to make themselves a more effective and confident individual.

[White Warlock]

Well, the truth is... assailants, criminals, thugs, bullies, come from all walks of life. Some have no formal training, others have plenty. I agree that confidence is important, and being effective even moreso. I, however, do not agree that it is the 'only' reasons a person should train in bjj... or any art for that matter.

[BJJShotoshe]

Since i am in bjj and karate i find it is almost impossible to use my karate against a bjj artist, the only way i am able to at least keep the fight from turning into a wrestling match is to keep them on their feet, therefore i have to learn the counters to their sweeps.

[SubGrappler]

I've said it before and I'll say it again CROSSTRAIN

..or then not, if all you need is already included in one system.

Depends on who's teaching it.

Yes, karate may have takedowns and grappling.

Yes, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and Judo have strikes in their curriculum.

The bottom line is though that just because its in there or just because they practice it DOES NOT make them good.

Any BJJ fighter that had good standup learned it from a different style, be it boxing, muay thai, or whatever else.

Any striker who had good groundwork learned it from a grappling art, be it wrestling, BJJ, or Judo.