Karate defence against BJJ

[AndrewGreen]

My belief on crosstraining has always been that your best bet is to train at a place that combines all of the aspects you are looking for in sparring.

Then, after getting some basics, crosstrain at more specialized clubs to further develop specific areas.

So, train in Muay Thai, cross train in boxing.

Train in MMA, cross train in BJJ/muay thai or boxing

Doing Boxing and BJJ might cover a good deal, but without the connecting piece it is far from ideal.

Tricky part is these clubs are not that common, but give things another 10 years and I think that will be the direction things go.

[b3n]

Woah, lots of replies. Good discussion.

[Lenny]

It’s fun to debate who would beat who, but like someone was saying, more than likely if there is an altercation it won’t be with someone who knows an MA. Assuming they are taught correctly. My point is if you have a BB grappler and a BB Whatever, they both won’t/shouldn’t be picking fights. Part of MA is learning to avoid a fight and using your “weapon” responsibly. If you're on the street or in a bar and someone starts something with you...you should be fine with what you have...if it’s striking or grappling. Just look out for his buddies.

All of that aside, I know it’s been said before but they only real research we have to look at is the early UFC’s. I know that’s not a “real” street situation, but how many real street situations do we have on tape of two known BB’s going at it? Not many. In UFC 1 you had first class strikers, Judo, Shootfighter, the list goes on and the BJJ won and easily. I think the only reason the UFC is not dominated by BJJ now is because they all know it. So you have to be well rounded. If you go out there with no grappling you better get ready to tap. If you go out there now with just BJJ you better bring the Vicodin.

[White Warlock]

Well Lenny, it is rather well understood that many of the people who get into lots of street/bar fights are ex-wrestlers/boxers. There are those who have studied other systems as well, but looking for that coveted black belt around their waist when they pummel you is not exactly the route to go. Truth is, you really don't know the background of the persons you encounter in the street and therefore you should practice, as well as reasonably possible, for every eventuality.

[Lenny]

ex-wrestlers/boxers.

I don't know about technically but I don't put those two in with MA. Maybe I should...no offence to any of those. You could never be prepared for everything someone might throw at you. One guy my pull out a grenade, I mean who knows. I'm just saying, if you take all the people who don't know a MA and all those that do, then weed out the ones who study it for the right reasons, then the chances of you coming across a 7 degree BJJ expert or a full on UFC fighter that just wants to starts some "S" chances are not that great. That's just my opinion. I don't go out picking fights and keeping a database on who whooped my A double.

But I do see your point, if you are that concerned about having holes in your "game" and getting into something on the street you better learn it all or that one in a 95,625,142,265,822 chance might come when you need to levitate and turn water into wine.

[AndrewGreen]

Well, given my goals and interests I'd say there is a 100% chance someone will try to take me down. Perhaps that's cause I don't plan on getting into any barfights, but do plan on doing lots of sparring.

If you don't like it don't do it. But don't make up silly stats about why you'll never need it. Fighting ability should be a side effect of your training, not the main goal.

[White Warlock]

Lenny, although i understand your argument... that it is unlikely we will end up being assaulted, or get into a physical confrontation, with an accomplished practitioner... i still don't see the point of your arguments.

The reason i say this is because those who strive to study the arts are doing it for more than merely the ability to survive a street encounter. As well, and as you indicated, there is no such thing as preparation (which, btw, i did not state... so kindly recognize i don't communicate with such vagaries), but there is such a thing as practice and personal development.

And while we cannot 'prepare' for every eventuality, we can develop ourselves to be able to "improvise, adapt, and overcome" most every eventuality. So while someone may present a grenade, we don't necessarily need to perform some wild flying monkey underhanded kick to disarm him... we just have to have the mindset, developed over countless training sessions and introspection, to determine the best action (or inaction) in handling such a difficult situation.

The martial arts is not merely about actions... it is about development. In my decades in the arts, i've noticed a 'huge' gap between how i react in an emergency situation and how just about everyone else acts. Indeed, when i'm at the scene of an emergency, i can immediately tell those who have 'developed' themselves and those who have not. For example, when i watch my sister react to a scene, i am proud of her... for i know that although she is not as developed in her understandings, she is nonetheless miles ahead of everyone around her, moving quickly to take command of the situation. And when she watched me in action, dealing with an emergency, she stated it was like she was moving in slow motion in comparison. So... while it may not be obvious on a day-to-day basis, practice does make a significant difference.

Back to the physical aspects of the arts. We do not study to protect ourselves from the 'average joe.' Were we to speak only of the physical aspects, we study to deal with the skilled assailant. My life will be on the line when i encounter someone who is better than me or presents an equalizer into the confrontation... such as a stick, stone, brick, or bone (preferably not mine). If i practice to handle a minor threat, and the situation escalates (weapons and/or skilled opponent), or multiple unskilled opponents confront me, than i will be 'ill-equipped' to handle the elevated threat.

What's the logic in that? Why spend decades studying something if i am only practicing to handle a minor threat? Indeed, why spend decades studying, if all i'm trying to do is defend myself in a confrontation? As i indicated, the arts are far more than merely the physicalities. One aspect is about avoidance, another about communication, another about inner peace, etc.

One more thing. One does not have to study the martial arts in a formal setting to have obtained a significant degree of fighting expertise. I encountered quite a few criminals, felons, that demonstrated ample fight expertise. These guys are violent career criminals not merely because they are violent, but because they are 'good' at violence and utilize it regularly as a means of obtaining an income. To assume the threats you encounter will only be presented by unskilled assailants, is to increase the likelihood of being found face-down in a gutter one day.

note: boxing and wrestling are indeed martial arts. Sport-oriented, but just as much martial arts as bjj, judo, sport-tkd, muay-thai, kickboxing, or any of the other multitude of 'sport-oriented' martial studies. To think otherwise is to dismiss European studies in combat as irrelevant, when in fact they are actually quite formidable.

[Willannem]

As some will say that you can’t defend against a takedown unless you train against someone who is an expert in takedowns, you can reverse that statement for strikes…You can’t defend against a strike unless you train against an expert in striking. I agree and disagree with both statements. You have to train with those that are experts in both. In ideal circumstances, it’s within one system.

Also, just because you do something more than someone else does not mean you’ll be better than them. Our Soke constantly said, “Quality over quantity!” In traditional jujutsu, you are train’d in stand-up, ground work, locks, throws, weapons, etc. There is just too much to focus on one aspect. I’ve fought against pure strikers in their own tournaments. More times than not, I’ve beat them. Some of the credit goes to me but most goes to the training I’ve received. I’ve spent, at best, 1/5 the time training to strike they have. Due to me being call’d up to active duty and subsequent relocation, I haven’t had the opportunity to fight pure grapplers so I haven’t tested that side of theory. My instructor has, however, and has prosper’d well against ‘em.

In essence, it all comes down training and the individual. You may have the perfect technique against takedowns but if you screw it up, oh well. Same goes for techniques against strikes.

[lgm]

Lenny, although i understand your argument... that it is unlikely we will end up being assaulted, or get into a physical confrontation, with an accomplished practitioner... i still don't see the point of your arguments.

The reason i say this is because those who strive to study the arts are doing it for more than merely the ability to survive a street encounter. As well, and as you indicated, there is no such thing as preparation (which, btw, i did not state... so kindly recognize i don't communicate with such vagaries), but there is such a thing as practice and personal development.

Different individuals have different perceptions of the level and quality of threat they would likely encounter in their personal life and/or their careers. If one perceives the threat would likely come from trained martial artists, then they would train to the level that will enable them to competently meet this level of threat. If we are talking about street attackers, current statistics will show that people expertly trained in martial arts do not constitute the majority, but in fact an almost insignificant minority. Hence, you will not need to develop your skill to the level of an accomplished expert and maintain it at that level everyday. Why kill a fly with a shotgun?

However, if you want to make professional sports ring fighting as your career, then the odds is almost completely positively skewed in favor of trained martial artists, so you will need to spend much effort, time and money to reach a very high level of expertise.

Nonetheless, if you believe you should be an expert and highly skilled even for ordinary street threat, I cannot blame you or criticize you for it. It's your personal investment and your anxiety. For as long as you realistically assess the threat confronting your situation and prepare for it adequately, you should be okay and won't need a shrink yet.

[shogeri]

These are just some collective thoughts on what lies beneath the surface of both BJJ, Karate, and indeed many Martial Arts.

Anything can happen out on the street. As I get older and older, I find that comparing styles or methods of fighting is important, but it should by the driving force behind a persons motivation to train.

Unless, of course a student plans on going out, and specifically picking fights with practitioners of BJJ, Aikido, or Jujutsu, or Chinese Boxers, Muay Tai, etc... Or perhaps they are thinking of joining the UFC?

We train to face many different types of opponents. Counter techniques exist for anything given to you during a fight. That is when you train, you train against the unknown, faceless opponent. Your goal is to win or to die trying (if on the street).

If a person's training method is to break the mold of fighting 'the average joe', then that is awesome, but it's best to not focus on just pitting styles or methods of fighting against the other, since statistically, we find that we are fighting the "average joe" out on the street.

It is the situations we are in that are dynamic and could be full of surprises. Such as someone pulling out a weapon, being high on drugs, or stupidly inebriated with alcohol, having several people attack at once, etc.

"Average Joe" training consists of:

1) Opponent throws big haymaker. Defender steps in, blocks or ducks under and strikes back.

2) Opponent rushes for a waist grab. Defender side steps, and either elbow strikes to back of neck or brings knee up to opponents chest or face.

3) Opponent grabs defenders wrist. Defender performs well executed shoulder throw, or perhaps wrist throw.

4) Opponent throws front kick. Defender grabs leg, sweeps rooted leg, and strikes ridgehand to neck or temple.

...my point is, it is better to create a dynamic fighting skillset, than to just train in the above 4 examples, or variances thereof.

I would say learn (in some way)wrestling, jujutsu, boxing, and even conflict resolution, in order to compliment the main style or method of fighting in which you practice.

I am in essence agreeing with the many similar posts put up just before mine.

I am not one to say, practice the Martial Arts "to get into shape", or to "build character", or to "learn how to defend yourself".

We practice the Martial Arts in order to build ourselves into a better surviving machine, mentally and physically. We carry these learned traits with us, throughout all aspects of our life. It is nothing that needs to be advertised in order to make it more exciting or alluring.

Effective Street Fighting:

Is the act of efficiently preparing for any street encounter, both mentally and physically

During this process, we find ourselves developing into a person who can, according to White Warlock, "improvise, adapt, and overcome". [/i]

We train for the unexpected, and yet expect nothing. All objects can be manipulated into being Martial. Our minds, our hands, feet, body, a knife, gun, pencil, brick, sheet of paper, and so on.

We go into the situation with a clean slate, we analyze the environment, taking in a breathe, relaxing, and then we reach into our brain pulling out the animal instinct of survival. No thoughts, only reaction to stimuli.

The more relaxed you are, the more sensitive you will be to the changes around you. People will actually seem to move in slow motion. Many times, your cognitive brain will shut down, and you will hardly recall what happened, since the other, more ancient part of the brain has taken over.

Afterwards, we usually say, "it all happened so fast, I'm not sure what went on."

I am saying that you need to connect body and mind, and understand the balances, and seek to fix any imbalances within you, or your training.

Of all the weapons we have, over the past quarter of a century of practice, I have found that the mind, it the most powerful, useful, and yet under utilized objects we have in our possession.

Do not fall into this trap.

Do you what you feel is best in order to maintain your hold on the basics, grow in the principles, methods, and techniques that work for you, as you march forward in life.

This is what the Martial Arts are about, nothing else. If you are not training to win, then you will not win.

Take care!