Pride

[shogeri]

Humility and pride should always go hand in hand. Otherwise something will be out of balance.

Too much humility, and your break a spirit.

Too much pride, and you could make a costly mistake.

Self-respect and respect of others plays a crucial role.

Self-awareness, and confidence also have a place.

[Goju_boi]

This is pretty good stuff.This could be used for other things besides martiala rts.

[lgm]

In my experience traditional arts teach humility in three ways. The first way is by example. The teacher presents a humble and and often inconspicuos image. This often has the effect of breaking the mold of preconceived notions about what skill looks like and what forms it takes.

Maybe what you mean is that by example being humble in manners and speech, the teacher hopes and I mean hopes his humility will rub on the student. Unfortunately, we cannot guarantee that this "teaching by example" will be reliably effective on his students and if so, whether it is extensive or general or limited only to exceptional cases.

The second way is by teaching a student or allowing him to experience greater potential. By giving students a peak into what is possible a student is often humbled. This is often done by means of the teacher demonstrating.

I'm sorry but I can't see how allowing a student to experience greater potential will result to his becoming humble. I have known many people who became succesful and great, i.e. having realized their greater potential, become prouder, more egoistic and some even turn megalomaniacs. The only exception are those whose religion compels them to be more humble the more rewards they get in life and they follow this call to humility.

The third and perhaps most important is effect that hard, earnest, and effective training has on ones perception. As you train hard and "beat the demons out of the soul" as they say, you become less defensive of your inadequacies...more secure with yourself. This has the effect of opening your eyes and allowing you to see the potential of what is really out there as you are no longer afraid to see it. There is nothing more humbling then this.

Is this a matter of faith or empirically established to be true or likely to happen among students who are subjected to "hard, earnest, and effective training" and that those who "train hard, become less defensive of inadequacies"? What scientific studies support this claim? I'm asking this question because in my own exhaustive research on the effects of martial arts training on personality, I have not found a shred of significant evidence to support this contention. Perhaps you have such data and can post it here. I would appreciate it so.

[Sauzin]

Sure let me provide some references...

http://www.angelfire.com/ego/narcissism/

This is a great article that details how narcissism can develop as a result of insecurities of the ego. This goes to my point that hard training rids you of some of these insecurities thus removing excessive pride which is viewed as a narcissistic trait.

http://samvak.tripod.com/faq50.html

A fantastic article by Dr. Sam Vaknin which details the finding that narcissism is the effect of a "False self" which supports my thesis that knowing ones true potential establishes a better sense of ones "true self" and as a result combats narcissism and/or an over abundance of pride.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3752/is_200003/ai_n8902781

This article goes into detail on the development of the ego and how it is relative. This article also goes to support my statement that a prominent example of humility affects one's development.

I think you misinterpreted my second point. When the teacher "demonstrates" it often involves putting a overconfident student on his rear end. That or performing a technique at a level far enough above the student to where he is forced to recognize his deficiencies. Like I said, it's all relative.

Now you are correct there are no studies that prove that what is done in a traditional classroom encourages a person to be humble. It is as they say, in the world of psychology there is little proven. But the theories are sound.

[lgm]

Sure let me provide some references...

http://www.angelfire.com/ego/narcissism/

This is a great article that details how narcissism can develop as a result of insecurities of the ego. This goes to my point that hard training rids you of some of these insecurities thus removing excessive pride which is viewed as a narcissistic trait.

http://samvak.tripod.com/faq50.html

A fantastic article by Dr. Sam Vaknin which details the finding that narcissism is the effect of a "False self" which supports my thesis that knowing ones true potential establishes a better sense of ones "true self" and as a result combats narcissism and/or an over abundance of pride.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3752/is_200003/ai_n8902781

This article goes into detail on the development of the ego and how it is relative. This article also goes to support my statement that a prominent example of humility affects one's development.

Thank for citing the above references. But, while they attempt to explain how narcissistic personality disorder may develop out of insecurities and faulty ego development, I don't see any support for the argument that hard martial arts training can or do in fact preclude and prevent one from becoming narcisssistic. You have to point out what aspect of martial arts training will cause this and provide documentary evidence that it does in fact. Theories are fine but facts must support them, otherwise they are pretty useless explanations of phenomena.

I think you misinterpreted my second point. When the teacher "demonstrates" it often involves putting a overconfident student on his rear end. That or performing a technique at a level far enough above the student to where he is forced to recognize his deficiencies. Like I said, it's all relative.

This was not clearly explained in your original post. But with your explanation here, requiring a student to perform beyond his present skill may serve as a humiliating but positive learning experience. However, it can also antagonize him against his teacher and discourage him from achieving further. This second method may result to positive or negative effects, depending on the student's personality, intelligence and other subjective as well as context and environmental factors. We cannot predict how it will exactly affect him.

Now you are correct there are no studies that prove that what is done in a traditional classroom encourages a person to be humble. It is as they say, in the world of psychology there is little proven. But the theories are sound.

Many theories may seem at face value sound or logically correct based on what people may consider self-evident premises, but the soundness of a theory is dependent on how and to what extent it will satisfactorily explain a given reality or phenomena by way of empirical proofs derived through scientific investigations that are verifiable and replicable.