Self Defense Techniques anyone?

[White Warlock]

I agree with AngelaG again. The issue here is that techniques can be a 'means' to obtain muscle memory but the 'goal' should not be to memorize the technique, it should be the principle behind that particular technique. Learning a set of actions is following through a set choreography. Dancers are great at this, but the greatest of dancers improvise and bring it all to a higher level. Why? Because they understand, at the muscular and synaptic level, the underlying principles associated with dance.

I.e., it is not about going through the motions, it is about 'being' the motion.

[P.A.L]

Learning nothing but lots of techniques for self-defence is fairly useless IMO, and a huge expenditure of effort that could be spent more wisely. And I completely disagree that learning a technique and understanding the principles are totally unrelated on several levels. Firstly if you don't understand the principles behind any given technique and just mimic the move then in a real self-defence situation, when one is working against an resisting attacker, and not a compliant partner, the likelihood is that you will fail to make it work. Either that or you will be able to make it work if they attack you in exactly the same way as you have consistently trained for, but will be unable to find a solution if the attack is in anyway different, which is the more likely scenario.

Understanding the principle behind specific fighting techniques is fine and critical indeed when learning them because you will be able to generalize them to a greater number of fight situations you may encounter. However, more critical than understanding of principles needed in learning techniques effectively is mastering through repetitive practice a few basic techniques that have wide applicability in combat situations to the point of making them almost instinctive, automatic and second-nature without the need for conscious thought or problem-solving. Deliberate problem-solving or thinking and conscious specification of general principles of fighting while in the heat of a fight can take too much time and will unduly delay your effective attack-defense reaction.

i am agree , what is principle? stealing balance? center line? using body mass? punch over? kick under? these are all good but when the real fight starts it's not like step in long punch. principles let you perform your technique in right way but they are not techniques they don't win a fight. if you wanna be a winner you got to be master in some limited number of techniques and counter techniques. you look at wrestling,boxing,judo... the bests allways have one or two winning techniques , after mastering a technique you creat the time/space for using it. you move, you set up a trap, you do whatever possible to create the right time for your technique.i love principles but at the end it is technique which gets the job done, if you master a techniques by repeating it , you are applying the principles no matter you realize it or not.

[Eric_]

Learning nothing but lots of techniques for self-defence is fairly useless IMO, and a huge expenditure of effort that could be spent more wisely. And I completely disagree that learning a technique and understanding the principles are totally unrelated on several levels. Firstly if you don't understand the principles behind any given technique and just mimic the move then in a real self-defence situation, when one is working against an resisting attacker, and not a compliant partner, the likelihood is that you will fail to make it work. Either that or you will be able to make it work if they attack you in exactly the same way as you have consistently trained for, but will be unable to find a solution if the attack is in anyway different, which is the more likely scenario.

Understanding the principle behind specific fighting techniques is fine and critical indeed when learning them because you will be able to generalize them to a greater number of fight situations you may encounter. However, more critical than understanding of principles needed in learning techniques effectively is mastering through repetitive practice a few basic techniques that have wide applicability in combat situations to the point of making them almost instinctive, automatic and second-nature without the need for conscious thought or problem-solving. Deliberate problem-solving or thinking and conscious specification of general principles of fighting while in the heat of a fight can take too much time and will unduly delay your effective attack-defense reaction.

Well put.

[lgm]

Understanding the principle behind specific fighting techniques is fine and critical indeed when learning them because you will be able to generalize them to a greater number of fight situations you may encounter. However, more critical than understanding of principles needed in learning techniques effectively is mastering through repetitive practice a few basic techniques that have wide applicability in combat situations to the point of making them almost instinctive, automatic and second-nature without the need for conscious thought or problem-solving. Deliberate problem-solving or thinking and conscious specification of general principles of fighting while in the heat of a fight can take too much time and will unduly delay your effective attack-defense reaction.

I disagree. I would still much rather prefer to have good sound foundations (principles) burned into my muscle memory, rather than a "technique".

Only techniques are burned into muscle memory and not principles. Muscles repeat exact and specific motions or movements and not "principles" unfortunately, since muscle memory is defined as body's ability to memorize, or perform automatically, a well rehearsed motion.

These priciples are core and therefore must be used in everything we do from the very first day we step in the dojo, so that everything we do has the ingredients for being correct, and there is less likelihood that if ever we have to rely on it we fail to complete it because the very foundation is flawed.

There are no core principles that are used in "everything we do". If there are, they must be presented and convincingly demonstrated to work for all situations.

I can easily make a technique look pretty with no understanding of what makes it work, but that technique will probably not work under pressure as there will be nothing behind it to back it up.

The reason why a technique may not work under pressure despite some practice done on it is because it has not become instinctive, second-nature or automatic in response to a defined attack. Maybe. There are a lot of reasons why a technique may not work, but I doubt whether a general principle deliberately thought of and applied under time pressure and stress will even work as fast and efficiently as a habitual, well-practiced and almost automatic specific response.

The whole point of having techniques rather than principles is that it is more likey to require thought, such as what technique should I apply to this attack, but if the principles are constantly drilled in then anything we choose to use has a better chance of being effective.

Unfortunately only individual specific or class-specific techniques can be drilled and memorized, not abstract principles, for effective almost instinctive, automatic application to fight situations. Principles are useful only in understanding and learning new techniques or learning them for the first time.

So many techniques rely on a few core principles. Look at techniques such as age uke, soto uke, uchi uke etc. they all fall back on the same principles, the only difference is where the arms go.

I don't want to appear challenging, but could you please identify and explain what the core principle is in all those different blocks you mentioned? Knowing and understanding this one principle, if there is one, is not suffficient or critical for fighting efficiency. But, repetitive and masterful practice of these specific basic blocks will go a long way to make you defend yourself efficiently under unpredictable fight conditions.

If you know what principles make those techniques effective then whatever technique you instinctively choose to use will have a better chance of working.

Instinctive action means you don't consciously think of what you are doing. What happens is that you already have done it before you become conscious of doing it. That's the kind of efficient fight reaction we need to train in a fighter. We muscle-train specific and group or combination techniques that have wide applicability and not abstract principle application in actual combat situations. Understanding of principles of combat are needed only at the learning stage of these techniques, but mastering them to the point of instinct and automatic action depends on repetitive practice without conscious thoughts.

[White Warlock]

Personally, i think there's a lot of tripping up on semantics here.

[lgm]

Personally, i think there's a lot of tripping up on semantics here.

Care to be more specific on what you consider to be "semantics" that is being tripped up, WW?

[White Warlock]

no, lol.

I will later. A little friggin' tired right now. Was working all night.

[Adonis]

Practice is the key. I agree with both IGM and Angela. Focusing on principles is good but those princples have to be placed into physical pratice with enough repition to make them effective. There for they go into techniques. with out repition of moves. You won't able to apply the principles which in tern a principle that isn't applied is just a theory.

So what principles angela are you refering to? Give more examples to your disscustion.

[h2whoa]

Practice is the key. I agree with both IGM and Angela. Focusing on principles is good but those princples have to be placed into physical pratice with enough repition to make them effective. There for they go into techniques. with out repition of moves. You won't able to apply the principles which in tern a principle that isn't applied is just a theory

True, true!!

[shogeri]

You can drill Principles (P) into a mind and body, just as you can Technique (T).

The less the better, and that includes both P & T.

It comes down to learning, applying, relearning, and reapplying ~ the basics.

It is about stripping away all that you know, in order to create a strong foundation.

Build better fighters, not robots.

A good fighter is dynamic, and knows 3 to 4 basic techniques, and from there can add an array of endless combinations, simply by understanding and applying certain principles.

Here is a brief comparison.

I know how to block (anything), and counter with a reverse punch.

I also know how to reverse punch, then lung frontkick.

These are technique driven methods.

Now Master NoMo DanMe only applies the principle of side step(in any direction) and complete the circle.

No matter what I do, the Master will prevail in both cases within the framework of the above.

Why, because within the array of (P), the Master has more options, than the student (or teacher), who only focuses on the array of (T).

Consider than P is a four dimensional array, while T is a single array.

My point is that both technique and principle are important, but the primary foundation should be in developing a person's fighting skills, which in my view, have little to do with learning a million techniques.

In fact, a person needs to be working on basic fighting principles which are given through skill training, and focus pads, and stepping routines, speed bags, and a personal trainer to pick out the good things, and the bad things in form, delivery, timing, reaction, and so on.

The only good thing I appreciate about boxing, is the training methods. They teach people how to fight. Though they limit both technique and principle, it's their intention in the first place that creates the best fighters in the world.

That is why mixed martial artists do well. They combine boxing training (the basic principles and a few techniques), along with the same applied training methods to ground-fighting.

It has little to do with having a great style. It has to do with methodical training based upon the application of a wide variety of attack and defend principles.

If a person can't determine who they are fighting, what there options are against several opponents, how to take on a knife without getting hurt (in a big way), etc., and all they know is technique, then it is not different than sending a person off the street, into a corporate accounting firm, and letting them settle the biggest account in history with only an academic book on how to do Financial Accounting.

Accountants, lawyers, doctors (et al), are trained not just in knowledge (technique), but in learning who, what, where, when, why, and how to apply such knowledge, and they are given the foundation in which to encourage growth in such areas. Those that are more successful, tend to have a deeper set of principles and experience in handling a wide variety of cases, patients, and clients.

A Martial Artist should be no different.

Those are my thoughts for the moment...