Ultimate Fighting

[Adonis]

agree with andrewgreen!

Principles translate to teh ground best to go get better instruction though. Because even though the principles apply its the technique and set ups and combination of princples that count. Or how you apply them or perform them.

I agree with other posters I haven't seen any strong level of karate grappling programs unless they bring in BJJ person. Most schools I seen highes they are able to get is purple. More often then not most are blues or white belts with not that much experience or skill lovel compared to there counter parts. As for regular karate programs. Most of the ground techniques come from some guy who did some wrestling some judo or watch some gracie tapes or something.

I weather look for specialist. I want to learn take downs I find a good wreslting coach. I want striking I find a good muay thai, boxing coach, and for subs I go for BJJ.

Just my opinion.

-Jeff

[KempoTiger]

I was going to comment....but I decided against it....but I'm already typing so I'll just say that judging from my past discussions/arguments on this topic I'm inclined to agree with Subgrappler.

One factor that should also be taken into consideration (which most martial artists regardless of background hate to admit) is size. People that train for the cage tend to get jacked and powerful, wherein TMArtists tend to just work out a bit a few times a week in a dojo. And when that guys got 30-60lbs on muscle on you, it's gonna suck when he takes that shot to the face/gut and gets a hold of you.

I fortunately and unfortunately have the opportunity to fight an aspiring UFC fighter, and he's given me a bit to think about when it comes to REAL practicality and what works. Alot of things seem great on paper, and even in demonstrations, but don't fall into the mental trap of thinking "well it doesn't work for me because I'm not good enough or fast enough yet." Don't make excuses like that for your style. I did it for years.

Although I still disagree with the basic premise that ring fighting is the closest thing to a real fight, and that a boxer/kickboxer will pound the life out of any TMArtist that attempts to do anything beyond box and shoot for a takedown, I will say that MMA teaches one alot and everyone should get a taste of it at least.

On a side note, I did have another wannabe UFC kid take a shot at beating me. But unfortunately for him he doesn't have that 50lb weight advantage on me, so I quickly showed him how well a strike to his knee followed by a groin shot can work before I choked him out in a "traditional" crane style, ridge hand choke, rather than using a guillotine or rear-naked.

[KempoTiger]

Well I'm already commenting so I mighta as well continue. Here's my take on the whole "who would win" argument of a real street fight, no holds barred etc etc....

Let me illustrate my next point with numbers. Lets put a rating system on peoples fighting ability in what they do. Lets say that UFC/Pride fighters are the top with a level 3, alongside Sensei's and masters, the supposed "best" of TMArts.

Then lets say there's lesser fighters in local competitions, or are aspiring fighters still in training and give them a 2 rating, and have students of those TMarts instructors being a 2 on the other half of the pie.

Then there's untrained street brawlers at a lvl 1 and new TMarts students at level 1.

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Now at the top of the food chain, the UFC style competitors have honed their skills to near perfection. They have their system down, they know what works and doesn't work, and move like well oiled machines. It's ridiculously hard to get strikes in on them, and even worse when you try to grab them. So at the top fighting level lets say that the MMArtists win most of the time due to this.

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Then we move down a level. Now at level 2, the boxers/kickboxers/grapplers are less talented at what they do. They don't have their timing down yet and their techniques are still slow and unrefined. At this level of talent, the TMArtist now has many more openings to get shots in than at the higher skill level, and judging by the fact that TMarts teach you to go for devastating strikes, my money would be on that guy taking the prize at roughly half the time.

The argument that's always brought up is, "well if the MMartist is any good then he won't let himself get caught with such vital blows, and before the other guy can do any locks or grabs he'll be pounding his face into the pavement." Well in this scenario at the non-professional level, the tables tend to be a bit more balanced. Without having such a style of fighting perfected, there's countless vulernabilities that they are left open to. Trying to block a flurry of strikes with your hands on guard shielding your face isn't too good of an idea when you haven't yet got your hips to sync with the rest of your body to shield your lower body, and dish out those devastatingly quick blows to KO your opponent.

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Then at the lowest level, I'd say the senseless brawler takes the cake. The Martial artist will no doubt try to do "something" he or she learned, and in the end it probably won't work the way it was intended, and the other guy will just tackle and pound them.

[fightingarts101]

I agree with most of your post, but disagree with a few sections.

For example:

1. you base much of your improvised rating system on the "perfection" or "mastery" certain arts, and the effectivness that goes along with it.

Now I see this as a very dangerous assumption. In my mind there is no such thing as perfecting an art. period. That would mean that you literally had nothing left to learn, and thus would imply that (in a fight) you could beat anyone in your style who you saw as "imperfect" in regard to their competancy.

is this really how it works though? I certainly dont think so.

You'll also never hear an MMA guy (or any professional fighter) talk of perfecting BJJ or muay thai or wrestling.

It's not about perfecting a style, its about being able to fight well at all ranges.

2. So called "untrained street fighters" can beat anyone on the street. Martial arts teaches us to fight, yes. but there is no better way to get good at fighting thasn having to fight for your life on a regular basis.

This is why many seasoned black-belts will lose in a basic bar fight. Even solid pro-MMA fighters could lose to em' ( more unlikely though)

3. At 'level 2' I'd give aspiring MMA fighters a huge edge against TMA fighters. Simply because MMA is always trained 'live' as they say. MMA BJJ Wrestling, Boxing, Muay thai students even at a beginner level are used to getting hit, used to hitting back, and used to dealing with adrenalin.

Most TMA guys aren't.

Heck, at level 2 (lets say 2 years of a TMA) you might still have never been in a fight, or a fighting situation.

Some TMAs dont even spar.

4. It's not really about how well you can do one art (in a streetfight) it's about being able to fight in any range, because a fight can happen at any range. As stated above, in my opinion this is why MMA guys have a better chance at winning streetfights

take a 'level 3' Shotokan blackbelt down to the floor, and they're not going to fare any better than a 'level one' streetfighter.

not to mention the fact that a decent high-school wrestler can take *anyone* down. (this is why wrestling works so well for MMA) thus negating all the weapons our "perfect" blackbelt woud use.

5. Kicking a bent knee is a bad idea. Despite what many TMAs teach, the bent knee does not break under 8 pounds of pressure. The bent knee is used as a *weapon* simply because it is harder, and stronger than the point on the body targeted with the strike.

Kicking a foward facing bent knee is akin to hitting a mans fist with your face. (the blow will almost always slide harmlessly off)

6. why use a "traditional" crane style, ridge hand choke when a RNC works better, and is more safe?

[matbla]

what kind of gloves do you need for this

from matt blake

[KempoTiger]

fightingarts, I completely agree with your assertions. I was wondering how long it would take before someone had to comment on something like that post. I really just wanted to see what king of reaction I got. Not saying that I don't stand by those words, but I do admit that I was greatly generalizing in my categories to make a point.

As far as "mastering" a style, I mean mastering what works for them. Kickboxers and grapplers seek to attain a level that many traditional martial artists ironically also seek. To feel complete control of ones body, and being able to react to a hostile surrounding on an instinctive subconscious level.

Now determining when one has "mastered" something like boxing or grappling I will admit is something none of us can claim to decide, but you can't deny that some are more in tune so to speak than others. A friend of mine has taken up MMA and it's gotten nearly * just trying to hit him (let alone the fact that when you do hit him he doesn't care and keeps pushing forward with a split lip or busted nose).

He's got his game down pact, and knows what he's doing. As much as I hate to compare it to this, it's like that kid that plays video games all day. He's got his one good character that he can kill anyone with, with a series of ironically simple techniques.

On a side note, I've begun testing the waters and when I fight him I attempt to pull some very unconventional teachniques and ideas that to my amusement sometimes tend to work, just because he's never expecting me to do something like that. So I suppose in my video game analogy, I guess I'm the kid who mashes the buttons and gets lucky

[KempoTiger]

what kind of gloves do you need for this

from matt blake

MMA gloves