Ultimate Fighting

[SkyDiver]

As you may know, there is a martial arts style known as Ultimate fighting or "mixed martial arts" where the rules are very lax in terms of what is allowed, however the goal is simple: Score the most points, or knock out the opponent. Many consider this to be the true test of a martial art, because its basically anything goes. While there is some Karate used, most Ultimate fighters say they rely mainly on brazilian Ju-jitsu, kick boxing, and wrestling.

There is often debate about how well a person would do "on the street" equiped with training in a specific martial art. Well anyone who knows this sport would probably agree that these guys (ultimate figthers) would do very well in that area.

Im new to the martial arts world and I was wondering what you people think that says about other martial arts, that when it comes down to it, when the objective is to take down the opponent at all costs, they choose brazilian ju-jitsu.

[SubGrappler]

Martial arts have evolved over the centuries in accordance with what was demanded of them. This means that they all came into their own at one point or another and are far from being equal.

Take for example, Japanese Ju Jitsu which taught many of the samurai how to utlize their array of weaponry, but after wars died out in Japan, became more and more focused on the unarmed combat aspect of fighting.

Boxing started out bareknuckle before gloves were eventually introduced. If you've ever wondered why the old boxers stood and punched weird, it was because the punching technique was slightly different in bareknuckle boxing- punching like boxers of today in a bareknuckle match gives more power, but heightens the risk of fracturing your hand.

Now, the UFC was set out to determine in a one on one unarmed match, who is superior? This was a great concept because it allowed martial arts to evolve more over the past 15 years than they have in the past 1000 years. Now, just because specific styles are used in MMA does not mean that all the others dont work. Also bear in mind that not everyone you fight is going to be a trained professional.

One thing clearly established by UFC and other MMA events was the massive advantage martial artists could hold over their opponents when they introduced cross training in other styles.

[Shorinryu Sensei]

One thing that we need to keep in mind here is that the martial arts were origionally intended and developed for personal protection against one or more opponents, armed or not. It was never intended as a sport or with an objective to "take down the opponent at all costs".

Whether or not the "ultimate fighters" can protect themselves in the streets is obvious, sure they can, and quite well I imagine. I disagree that this is the true test of a martial art, as ultimate fighting is still a sport with rules, no weapons or multiple opponents, not real life.

I'm an old fashioned kind of martial artist. I feel the arts were designed to protect yourself, a loved one, or a total strange if you choose to do so, and that's it. It's not for sport. It's not to impress your friends or the cute girl down the block, and it's not to build better bodies. It's for protection of yourself or others. Now, if you choose to use it for competition, or to impress people, or to lose weight and get in better shape, that's fine, but that's not what it was origionally intended for.

To say that entering a ring with rules and an equally prepared opponent is the true test of being a martial artist is absolutly wrong. The true test is, IMHO, can you stay alive if attacked on the street in a real confrontation? Can you protect your family with it? If so, then yes, that is the true test. If not...well, maybe you need to train harder, or rethink what you're doing.

[SubGrappler]

I have a problem when people start talking about rules, weapons, and multiples.

Yes, there are rules, but the ones people mainly argue about are the eye gouging and biting. I've heard numerous RBSD people and pressure point guys who think they're scary deadly because they're going to go for your eyes or bite you when you grab them- a half decent fighter is going to have knocked them out before they know whats happening.

Weapons are another issue. I have never seen any kind of practical attempts at weapon disarms.

Multiples are something that every standup martial artist tries to use to justify his system. The very same people who claimed to be able to defeat multiple opponents proved incapable of defeating even a single one when put in the cage. Bear in mind that the UFC did not just blindly pair up strikers with grapplers at every event- there were plenty of striker vs striker battles.

And martial arts, while not intially designed for sport, have advanced, improved, and become more efficient when they were developed into sporting competitions. The most popular styles used in today's MMA are all sports (Boxing, Muay Thai, BJJ, Wrestling, Judo, Sambo).

[ravenzoom]

I believe both of you have valid arguments. Fact is, that the UFC and other similar organizations have helped develop 'sports' martial arts in a huge way when mixing them with each other (cross-training) and prove them to be a very efficient way to defend yourself. However, I don't think these same organizations (UFC, PRIDE, K!, etc.) have helped develop traditional martial arts, not because they are innefective, but because they do not adapt well to ring combat sport since their priorities are directed elsewhere. Most MMA fighters mix the same baggage of martial arts because these proved to be effecient in the ring, however these fighters could still learn very useful things from traditional martial arts.

[Sauzin]

Eye gouging and biting? What about...

...hair pulling?

...trachea crushing?

...attacks on the spine?

...groin strikes/removal?

...throat strikes?

...striking downward using the point of the elbow?

...neck breaks?

...strikes to the back of the skull?

...hooking under the neck?

...small joint manipulation/breaking?

...removing or popping the ears?

...clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh?

These rules seriously change the nature of a fight. They basically take the "lethal" out of it. Of course BJJ and other grappling arts are going to have an advantage. The UFC rule list reads like a striking arts handbook on what to do if you meet a grappler.

On top of this, what kind of traditional martial artist would want to do what was necessary (likely killing) an opponent in a ring just to prove a point? Certainly not anyone of any repute or skill.

Don't get me wrong, I think BJJ is great. But the UFC is not an arena made for traditional arts. It can't be.

Old traditional arts have spent thousands of years trying to figure out how to train real fighting without killing each other. I think they do a pretty darn good job. Cross training is nothing new and has been done for centuries. The trick is to learn one art well enough so that when you find other aspects of other arts you like, you can realize them within the art you already know.

[Sauzin]

And martial arts, while not intially designed for sport, have advanced, improved, and become more efficient when they were developed into sporting competitions. The most popular styles used in today's MMA are all sports (Boxing, Muay Thai, BJJ, Wrestling, Judo, Sambo).

You know this is definately a matter of opinion. Myself and a lot of other traditionalists that have been around for a while believe the exact opposite.

In martial arts, popularity is almost never a good thing for long.

[Shorinryu Sensei]

Another thing we need to keep in mind here is the objective of a traditional martial artist and a UFC/Pride fighter. A traditional martial artists goal is for self-improvement and advancing his/her skills to the point of being able to protect their lives, whereas a UFC/Pride fighter trains long and hard hours to win in a competition, not on the street. Many of these UFC/Pride people, competition is their job, not just a goal that they have.

Don't take that as a slam against the UFC/Pride people not being able to handle themselves on the street, as surely they can, but that is NOT their objective.

IMO, literally anybody can learn to defend themselves. Blind, deaf, physically handicapped, fat or thin. How many blind people do you see in the UFC/Pride? How many people my age (52) or older? How many 98 lb weaklings? How many women? Yet all of these people (even me ) can effectively learn to defend themselves in a self-defense situation. That is our goal, not getting into a ring with some steroid using mauler intent on rearranging my face.

[Shorinryu Sensei]

And martial arts, while not intially designed for sport, have advanced, improved, and become more efficient when they were developed into sporting competitions. The most popular styles used in today's MMA are all sports (Boxing, Muay Thai, BJJ, Wrestling, Judo, Sambo).

As Sauzin stated, that is a matter of opinion. IMO what you're calling "more efficient", I would call leaving out HUGE aspects of the origional art, adding rules and limitations, and forgetting a lot of what made those arts in their origional forms such a great means of self-defense just to turn them into a kinder, gentler form of entertainment for the masses.

Sure, I know the UFC/Pride is not what anybody would consider gentle by any means, but they have turned the arts you've mentioned into a gladiator type entertainment spectacle, and in the majority of cases their end goals are to gain fame and fortune (as in money), pure and simple, not to better themselves or to protect themselves as the art was origionally intended.

[SkyDiver]

This has been quite informative guys, thanks