a puncher versus a grappler...for you UFC/Pride and mma guys

[h2whoa]

My example of lewis is only trying to say that kepping someone at bay tiring them, striking their extremities, hands, feet. quick strikes to anger them, their is alot more to a fight than take downs and snaps, or straight knockout punches! If my opponent is angry, than i have already won.

I have never believed in "dancing" because you set youself off balance. I like to stand my ground, a shot exposes the top of the head, a well timed elbow could wipe your opponent out. I know you UFC fans and grapplers wont admit it, but grappling is not air tight! Neither is striking for that matter but their are ways to prevent a shot and a grappler is nothing without his shot, or being able to come in close to excecute throws.

I also have studied Judo for four years and hapkido so grounding and joint locks and arm/leg bars are also a part of my arsenal, but wearing a grappler down angering him and stinging his ego, then if he takes me to the ground, Im ready for him there as well!!

[SubGrappler]

. I like to stand my ground, a shot exposes the top of the head, a well timed elbow could wipe your opponent out.

Seriously doubt that. Have you ever had someone throw a double leg on you? At most elbows to the top of the head hurt, but all the momentum that was built up as a result of the shot isnt going to just "stop" once you throw that elbow- its going to hurt him a little, but the slam you recieve after he picks you up is going to more than even the score.

. I know you UFC fans and grapplers wont admit it, but grappling is not air tight!

We never said it was- we simply refute common misconceptions that people have about defending takedowns (i.e. throw an elbow to their head or a knee in their face when they shoot).

. Neither is striking for that matter but their are ways to prevent a shot and a grappler is nothing without his shot, or being able to come in close to excecute throws.

Clinches are almost impossible to stop- if someone wants to clinch, hes going to- its what you do in the clinch that determines whether you stay on your feet or not.

Unless you literally run away from your opponent (or knock him out very quickly), one of these two is going to happen. In case you wonder why, in order to throw any punch or kick that has sufficient knockout power, you HAVE to root your feet in the ground. It is at these precise moments that you're vulnerable to either a clinch or a shot attempt.

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[White Warlock]

My example of lewis is only trying to say that kepping someone at bay tiring them, striking their extremities, hands, feet. quick strikes to anger them, their is alot more to a fight than take downs and snaps, or straight knockout punches! If my opponent is angry, than i have already won.

Not necessarily. When i get angry, i'm still full capable of putting everything i know into motion. The only real differences are that i am more aggressive and more foolhardy. That doesn't cause me to forfeit the confrontation.

I have never believed in "dancing" because you set youself off balance.

My statement about dancing was in direct reference to how Lennox Lewis fights. He adopted much of Muhammed Ali's style, intentionally or unintentionally. The point i made was that dancing may keep you mobile, but as soon as you take exit from a shot, you telegraph the opening a grappler will exploit.

In any event, my definition of dancing is not your definition. When i'm referring to dancing, i'm not talking about moving around with my feet a lot as opposed to standing in a single place... or in a semi-rigid stance. When i'm talking about dancing, I'm referring to moving about the opponent and taking pot-shots until the knockout opportunities present themselves as opposed to going full bore... as an amateur would do on his first few boxing bouts.

Boxers get deprogrammed out of a good habit. Present-day boxing matches are designed to present an extended display, not a single moment of fury. The problem is, a single moment of fury is what a 'real' confrontation is like. UFC better represents that sort of thing than a boxing match does.

I like to stand my ground, a shot exposes the top of the head, a well timed elbow could wipe your opponent out.

Err... shoot, not shot. A poorly implemented shoot to the legs you mean. As stated earlier, there are a multitude of ways a grappler can take you down, most of which are straight-on body throws, not leg takedowns. Yet, even if a leg-takedown were to be attempted, this so-called well timed elbow just won't have an opportunity for making much of an impact... nor will the skull truly complain about the bang on the top from such a distorted angle. Indeed, attempting to do this elbow attack is an all or nothing venture. You succeed in knocking him out, great. Unlikely, but great. However, if you don't, because you committed yourself to this elbow strike, you clearly didn't attempt to sprawl or counter the attempted takedown. Thus, you're going down... hard.

Last comment about these leg-takedowns. When people play, they are slow with a takedown. In wrestling, real good wrestling, a shoot to the legs is lightning quick in application. My opponents are flying backwards in the air before they even realized what i did. One moment i was in front of them, the next they're staring at the ceiling. This is not me bragging, for i am not even remotely the greatest at shooting. I've experienced people who can shoot so quick they cause me to be the one staring at the ceiling, wondering what happened.

I know you UFC fans and grapplers wont admit it, but grappling is not air tight!

Well, just to point out... and i'm sure there are many in this site that can attest to this, i am not a UFC fan, nor am i solely a grappler. I also see no need to pigeon hole everyone that disagrees with some of your arguments.

Neither is striking for that matter but their are ways to prevent a shot and a grappler is nothing without his shot, or being able to come in close to excecute throws.

Well, a pure grappler possibly, but as you should well know... the percentage of 'purist' practitioners has decreased significantly over the last decade.

I also have studied Judo for four years and hapkido so grounding and joint locks and arm/leg bars are also a part of my arsenal, but wearing a grappler down angering him and stinging his ego, then if he takes me to the ground, Im ready for him there as well!!

There you are, you're also not a purist striker...

[AndrewGreen]

I like to stand my ground, a shot exposes the top of the head, a well timed elbow could wipe your opponent out.

Sure, if they completely ignored the set up and just came at you. No one with skill will do that. Chances are if I'm shooting my fist just finished hitting your face a half second before I got your legs, or you just threw a punch or kick and I shoot off that.

I know you UFC fans and grapplers wont admit it, but grappling is not air tight! Neither is striking for that matter but their are ways to prevent a shot and a grappler is nothing without his shot, or being able to come in close to excecute throws.

Yes, you can stop takedowns. IF, and this is important, you train them seriously with people who are good at them on a regular basis.

Grappling and striking are not seperate things. Submission and striking are. Being seperated, in the clinch or on the ground are. But if you want to be a good striker, you need to be able to strike from anywhere, get to superior positions and get out of inferior ones.

[h2whoa]

Andrew Geen

h2whoa wrote:

I like to stand my ground, a shot exposes the top of the head, a well timed elbow could wipe your opponent out.

Sure, if they completely ignored the set up and just came at you. No one with skill will do that. Chances are if I'm shooting my fist just finished hitting your face a half second before I got your legs, or you just threw a punch or kick and I shoot off that.

To hit my face you need to be within striking range, and i would also not be standing back. If you were that close inside my punching rangeyou would meet quite a surprise on the way down, my fist coming up! I believe that speed and co ordinated power are the keys to sucess!

Whitewarlock

h2whoa wrote:

My example of lewis is only trying to say that kepping someone at bay tiring them, striking their extremities, hands, feet. quick strikes to anger them, their is alot more to a fight than take downs and snaps, or straight knockout punches! If my opponent is angry, than i have already won.

Not necessarily. When i get angry, i'm still full capable of putting everything i know into motion. The only real differences are that i am more aggressive and more foolhardy. That doesn't cause me to forfeit the confrontation.

That is what i meant, if you aere foolhardy, then i have won!! Do you think that confrontation is physical or mental!

Quote:

I have never believed in "dancing" because you set youself off balance.

My statement about dancing was in direct reference to how Lennox Lewis fights. He adopted much of Muhammed Ali's style, intentionally or unintentionally. The point i made was that dancing may keep you mobile, but as soon as you take exit from a shot, you telegraph the opening a grappler will exploit.

In any event, my definition of dancing is not your definition. When i'm referring to dancing, i'm not talking about moving around with my feet a lot as opposed to standing in a single place... or in a semi-rigid stance. When i'm talking about dancing, I'm referring to moving about the opponent and taking pot-shots until the knockout opportunities present themselves as opposed to going full bore... as an amateur would do on his first few boxing bouts.

Boxers get deprogrammed out of a good habit. Present-day boxing matches are designed to present an extended display, not a single moment of fury. The problem is, a single moment of fury is what a 'real' confrontation is like. UFC better represents that sort of thing than a boxing match does.

I dont stand around or dance around taking "pot shots". Stationary counter striking!!

Quote:

I like to stand my ground, a shot exposes the top of the head, a well timed elbow could wipe your opponent out.

Err... shoot, not shot. A poorly implemented shoot to the legs you mean. As stated earlier, there are a multitude of ways a grappler can take you down, most of which are straight-on body throws, not leg takedowns. Yet, even if a leg-takedown were to be attempted, this so-called well timed elbow just won't have an opportunity for making much of an impact... nor will the skull truly complain about the bang on the top from such a distorted angle. Indeed, attempting to do this elbow attack is an all or nothing venture. You succeed in knocking him out, great. Unlikely, but great. However, if you don't, because you committed yourself to this elbow strike, you clearly didn't attempt to sprawl or counter the attempted takedown. Thus, you're going down... hard.

Last comment about these leg-takedowns. When people play, they are slow with a takedown. In wrestling, real good wrestling, a shoot to the legs is lightning quick in application. My opponents are flying backwards in the air before they even realized what i did. One moment i was in front of them, the next they're staring at the ceiling. This is not me bragging, for i am not even remotely the greatest at shooting. I've experienced people who can shoot so quick they cause me to be the one staring at the ceiling, wondering what happened.

The takedowns are possibly Judo style throws? I could be wrong! i have some grappling back ground so i know whats happening that is my advantage!

As for the elbow strike i was refering to leg takedowns! As an example!!

Quote:

I know you UFC fans and grapplers wont admit it, but grappling is not air tight!

Well, just to point out... and i'm sure there are many in this site that can attest to this, i am not a UFC fan, nor am i solely a grappler. I also see no need to pigeon hole everyone that disagrees with some of your arguments.

I apologise!!

Quote:

I also have studied Judo for four years and hapkido so grounding and joint locks and arm/leg bars are also a part of my arsenal, but wearing a grappler down angering him and stinging his ego, then if he takes me to the ground, Im ready for him there as well!!

There you are, you're also not a purist striker...

Never said that I was a purist, in this day and age that would be Purely Stoopid!! All that Im saying is that striking to anger yopur opponent is good, counterstriking is good, I hate to be grounded so strike as much as you can to cause injury. I kick th hands stomp the feet etc. Hey if my feet can break boards they can break fingers!

h2whoa wrote:

. I like to stand my ground, a shot exposes the top of the head, a well timed elbow could wipe your opponent out.

Seriously doubt that. Have you ever had someone throw a double leg on you? At most elbows to the top of the head hurt, but all the momentum that was built up as a result of the shot isnt going to just "stop" once you throw that elbow- its going to hurt him a little, but the slam you recieve after he picks you up is going to more than even the score.

The momentum will do them in! And as for the slam, Break falls my friend! I train with a commonwealth gold medalist in Judo, and with some wrestlers!

h2whoa wrote:

. Neither is striking for that matter but their are ways to prevent a shot and a grappler is nothing without his shot, or being able to come in close to excecute throws.

Clinches are almost impossible to stop- if someone wants to clinch, hes going to- its what you do in the clinch that determines whether you stay on your feet or not.

Unless you literally run away from your opponent (or knock him out very quickly), one of these two is going to happen. In case you wonder why, in order to throw any punch or kick that has sufficient knockout power, you HAVE to root your feet in the ground. It is at these precise moments that you're vulnerable to either a clinch or a shot attempt.

Yes it is what you do in the clinch, i agree, but strikebefore all this goes down on the chance that you will KO him! But if we go to ground Im ready!!

[Adonis]

What if, what if, what if, what if the situaiton to death right?

[White Warlock]

That is what i meant, if you aere foolhardy, then i have won!!

That is a 'foolish' assumption.

Do you think that confrontation is physical or mental!

Both...

I dont stand around or dance around taking "pot shots". Stationary counter striking!!

Counter striking assumes the other is striking at you. As well, it is a defensive posture, not an offensive one.

The takedowns are possibly Judo style throws? I could be wrong! i have some grappling back ground so i know whats happening that is my advantage!

???

As for the elbow strike i was refering to leg takedowns! As an example!!

Which i already covered. It is not an effective counter to a leg takedown.

I kick th hands stomp the feet etc. Hey if my feet can break boards they can break fingers!

Boards don't hit back.

The momentum will do them in! And as for the slam, Break falls my friend!

Which means you are on the ground, in their element and out of yours. Remember, this thread's argument was about 'puncher vs grappler.'

I train with a commonwealth gold medalist in Judo, and with some wrestlers!

Then maybe you should present these arguments to them and have them show you, with physical example, the fallacy of them.

I agree with Karate25. A lot of 'what ifs' being presented here. Every situation is different and there is no 'ultimate' technique.' The best one can do is have an overall 'approach.' At present, i'm not in agreement with the approach you have thusfar presented h2whoa, mainly because it is instead being argued by techniques and 'perfect' scenarios.

[BLueDevil]

I just dont understand why one has to be better than the other in these conversations. Obviously both are just as effective as the other, otherwise in the UFC and PRIDE you would not see both knockouts and submissions. There would be a significant lean towards one or the other with subs or KOs being a rarety. the chances even in the street are 50/50 most of the time.

[Adonis]

Forumlate a theory, take theory, and test it, evaluate the results, and reforumulate a course of action, and re-test the COA (course of action) and repeat process or re-testing diffrent forumlative COA's until desired results have occured.

Saying what you can do and then doing it are two diffrent things.

I say just enjoy your training, but if people want to say they can do this or that. Then prove it with as many people as you can, from diffrent styles, and who are good at what they do and prove it to your self.

[h2whoa]

I've seen quite a few shooters eat a knee and drop to the mat like a rock. Knees are fast and effective, especially if executed from your point of origin. Granted, a lot of trained shooters are very explosive due to the leg training they do (squats, hill sprints, etc) but face it -no pun intended- your knee is right there at their face.

Stump is right, shooters take a lot of blows sacrificing for that one successful grab. Imagine what it's like to miss a few shoots! Ouch! It only takes one well placed strike to knock out someone and that shooters head is awfully exposed every time they shoot.

BTW, a front knee to the collarbone works nicely as it doesn't take a lot of pressure to break it and that pretty much cancels out their entire arm. Just listen for the "snap."

One technique I've used and seen work for others is to shuffle back (push drag reverse for you kenpoist) simultaneously executing double hammerfists down across the shooters trapezius close to the neck. This utilizes their own momentum but shifts it downward. In other words they eat the floor. Follow up with a front round kick to the side of said shooters head as they try to get back up (if they can) and you're pretty much done.

Another little nasty technique is to step offline as they shoot. Either with a cross or by simply offsetting a leg. Simultaneously executing a nice elbow to the inside of the shooters biceps as they try to grab usually disuedes them. Followed by a nice hammer fist to the base of the skull or (my favorite) right behind the ear will end it every time. Stepping offline eludes some folks as they think too 2-dimensionally and only consider to advance or retreat. Think 3-dimensionally. There's more than just two directions one can move.

Often shooters will jab to get your attention "up" prior to shooting. Watch for their head to dip and/or watch for them to enter into a squat position prior to shooting. The "infamous" BJJ fellows will sometime gauge distance by "kicking" at your leg. Notice there really isn't much contact and the "kick" seems half-hearted. They are in fact gauging their range prior to shooting your legs. Just some tips for those defending against shooters that have no experience.

This is from a guy in another forum! He has senn people Eat knees and elbows, this sort of sums up what I am trying to say! You can agree or disagree but it happens. You can take heed or get knocked out next time you try to shoot!