a puncher versus a grappler...for you UFC/Pride and mma guys

[Master Yoshi]

The truth is that no move is 100% effective. There's always a countermove for everything. And if you cannot find a countermove then always improvise. Bruce Lee is the best example of this ideal. He always taught to his students that when being choked and you are in a position where there's no where to go because you end up hurting yourself, what you have left is to bite, since is the natural instinct. If you are grabbed there's always a way to get free from it. Do not tell me that a grappler have a higher chance of winning than a striker because if a striker throws a punch to your throat or pokes your eyes or grab your private parts and squeeze on them, tell me how effective a grab or take down would be? Also if you have a perfect standing position, no matter how great a grappler your opponent is he should have a hard time trying to take you down, meaning that the guy with the black belt that got beaten by the white belt grappler doesn't have great legs, learned a defense class that only trains for tournament purposes and is not a real martial art or they gave him the black belt and doesn;t train much.

[AndrewGreen]

a perfect standing position, no matter how great a grappler your opponent is he should have a hard time trying to take you down,

umm...

Well, considering wrestlers spen a lot of time training to not get taken down, and optomise there position for that goal, you're perfect position theory seems, well, flawed.

If you want to stay on your feet you got to learn to sprawl, crossface, whizzer, etc.

I don't care how perfect your stance is, you can and will be taken down by a decent grappler.

That's like saying if you put your hands in the right place no one can hit you...

[SubGrappler]

Andrew, Im just pointing out that if wanted, a KO could prove to be just as deadly as say, a throat strike (if you were looking to kill the person.)

The truth is that no move is 100% effective. There's always a countermove for everything. And if you cannot find a countermove then always improvise. Bruce Lee is the best example of this ideal. He always taught to his students that when being choked and you are in a position where there's no where to go because you end up hurting yourself, what you have left is to bite, since is the natural instinct.

If the person doing the choking has any idea what hes doing, you'll be unable to bite while being choked. In order to bite, you've got to be able to close your mouth around whatever it is thats choking you- if you've got enough space to do this, then you've got well enough space to simply slip out of the hold.

Do not tell me that a grappler have a higher chance of winning than a striker because if a striker throws a punch to your throat or pokes your eyes or grab your private parts and squeeze on them, tell me how effective a grab or take down would be?

Hey, hes just stating the facts here. Assume we're talking about one dimensional fighters with no cross training. Strikers have tried (and failed) numerous ways to prevent being clinched up and taken to the ground. This doesnt mean striking doesnt work, it simply means that its 10 x easier to force a clinch than it is to prevent one. Once in the clinch, theres an uneven level of skill which usually leads the grappler to winning the clinch and taking the fight to the ground.

The other thing you fail to realize is that grapplers arent stupid- they know they'll lose if they trade strikes with an experienced striker, which means they're going to be covering up when they close the distance, making any attempted throat strikes or ko punches much less successfull than if they were exchanging blows.

Also if you have a perfect standing position, no matter how great a grappler your opponent is he should have a hard time trying to take you down, meaning that the guy with the black belt that got beaten by the white belt grappler doesn't have great legs, learned a defense class that only trains for tournament purposes and is not a real martial art or they gave him the black belt and doesn;t train much.

Not true. Mark Hunt, Mirko Cro Cop, and Wanderlei Silva get taken down all the time, and these are the best in the world when it comes to striking. Getting and preventing takedowns is based quite simply on grappling skill- you cant expect to defend one if you've never trained how to against someone that knows what they're doing. Not only that, but bear in mind that many grappling styles train their fighters how to take their opponents to the ground (in fact, this is the mainstay of many grappling styles such as Judo, Sambo, and Wrestling). They practice this every day- theres a reason why they're successful at taking the fight to the ground.

If you dont want to get taken to the ground against a grappler, learn how to grapple. Just as if you dont want to get ko'ed by a striker, learn how to strike if you intend on trading blows. In order to throw a ko blow, the striker must commit himself, at which point hes susceptible to a takedown. The reason why people try to dismiss the idea that you dont need grappling training to defend against grappling is because they dont like the idea that after so many years of training, it can all be rendered useless after something as simple and quick as a takedown.

This has already happened in MMA evolution- everyone thought striking was initially useless, until the strikers learned how to defend takedowns and fight on the ground and started knocking everybody out.

[ravenzoom]

Could not have said it better myself. I agree with everything said

[elbows_and_knees]

Also if you have a perfect standing position, no matter how great a grappler your opponent is he should have a hard time trying to take you down, meaning that the guy with the black belt that got beaten by the white belt grappler doesn't have great legs, learned a defense class that only trains for tournament purposes and is not a real martial art or they gave him the black belt and doesn;t train much.

let's turn this one around so you ca see how belittling it sounds:

Also, if you have a perfect guard - chin down, hands up, etc. lower your level and enter with speed, then no striker will ever be able to hit you hard enough to even thinnk about knocking you out, no matter how great a striker he is. Any grappler that gets hit hard by a striker doesn't have enough speed and has not been realistically training his takedowns. He is therefore not a real martial artist and likely the product of a McSchool...

[DKizzle]

I get a lot of questions about Martial Arts from friends, and this is one of the most frequent discussed. And I always tell them that neither style is a shoe-in to win. Your best bet is to train in both. Then you'll be much harder to beat.

And I hear a lot of that "curb stomp him" crap, on this forum and in life. And it's my personal opinion that nobody who calls himself a Martial Artist should ever consider so dishonorable a technique.

[SubGrappler]

And I hear a lot of that "curb stomp him" crap, on this forum and in life. And it's my personal opinion that nobody who calls himself a Martial Artist should ever consider so dishonorable a technique.

Agreed, but "curb stomp" is much quicker and easier to write than "kick the guy in the head after hes unconcious until you cause so much trauma so as to cause his death."

Both convey the same idea

[DKizzle]

I have no problem with the term, just the principle of hitting a man when he's down.

[Adonis]

some who doesn't know strikes but can take down and submit against a pure striker. I would put it on the grapper. My opinon. Jiu-Jitsu and judo are okay. Boxing/ muay thai are great also.

wreslting is the key to getting the take downs and stopping take downs. Chuck Liddel is D1 wreslter and it helps him get back up to his feet to do his striking and he has ko'ed some people as we all know.

Vandereli Silva schooled quite a few others with his mauy thai and Jiu-Jitsu techniques from the chute box.

But vice versa, got to be able to strike also few of teh gracie's have been KO'd because they couldn't keep up with the evolution of martial arts. You got to learn both. You got be able to have a ground game and a striking game. Have to be cross training. Even now some of the glarring weakness are going out the window as fighters become more cross trained and well rounded so though holes in there game start becoming smaller.

JMO

Got to be well rounded

[KempoTiger]

I have no problem with the term, just the principle of hitting a man when he's down.

Honor is a meaningless thing when in an honorless fight wherein someone is trying to take my life or harm my loved ones.

Simply put, I have no problem curb stomping, eye gouging, groin ripping, or wacking upside the head with a 2x4 with a nail in it to someone in a given situation.

I also would hope to show that I have the self control to inflict as little damage as necessary when in a hostile confrontation. I don't intend to cripple or kill some drunk at a bar.

It all depends the situation.