Shotokan - Dead End

[vales]

Shotokan is a karate style which focuses on direct blows againist the opponent. Here is a story- a real one i swear. Me and my cousin (who studied then shotokan, and now ninjutsu) were leaving a night club in Thessalonika, 5 years ago. Two guys walking in Thessalonica at 4 o'clock in the night, are kinda crazy ( or karate black belts ) We met a band of fellas, who clearly wanted to rob us. I was kinda frightened, but not shocked. They were five and we were only two. But that didnt matter. the leader of this gang (i think he was the leader) tried to hit my cousin with a baseball bat. he dodged and performed vertical tetsui uchi to the guy's back of the head. he fell down and lost consiousness. a second guy (all the others were apparently shocked by this onehit/kill) tried to hit him with a piece of wood, but he got worse. All my cousin did, was a guaku tsuki directly to his sternum and knocked him out. Then the others started running away. The funny thing is that police didn't believe he just hit them once, until they gained consiousness and told the same story.

The whole point is that karate (and all MA) teach you to be calm at first hand, and then teach to defend yourself. All the others are titles, pointless in many occasions. You mustn't believe that knockdown or whatever savage else is more effective than Shotokan or other no contact Karate.

Mas Oyama was a gifted person, but Funakoshi, Mabuni, Motobu, Kuniba, Ohtsuka and many many others were demigod compared to him. So what now, they were old japanese and okinawan fools to study a peaceful martial art (sound a little funny)

For the sake of History, the leader recovered consiousness after 1 hr and had a severe concussion (hospitalised for 2 days) and the other had breathing problems and stayed in the hospital for a week (at least thats what weve been told) And no, my cousin is not a 7 feet giant. He is more than 6 feet (1,69 meters sorry for the lousy conversion in feet...) and he reminds me of harry potter...

[ravenzoom]

I've read every post, and some give really good suggestions, but I believe you should try out a new style just to see the differences and have a breath of fresh air, at least for a while to see something different, more focused on self defense. If you don't like it after a while just find something else or go back to Shotokan (even though you aren't sure of its self defense effectiveness). But something new might do you some good and give you a new perspective on things. Perhaps you might enjoy Shotokan even more because of this. Learning more techniques and acquiring new self defense techniques can only be beneficial to you.

[jion]

I believe you should try out a new style just to see the differences and have a breath of fresh air

Originally I wanted to find something else, since Shotokan just hit a dead end for me.

That is why I tried jujitsu. However, I missed those little things you get in Shotokan. Although one doesn't exclude the other, I found Shotokan was and is the love of my life. I set out looking for more mileage. It isn't about criticising the style, and I overgeneralised a lot to make a point, but it was about me finding a new direction within Shotokan.

I came to the point were I was stuck in "Children's Karate", the way Itosu and Funakoshi made it. I doesn't really have to do with McDojo's or anything, probably more to do with the fact that most people who train Shotokan just enjoy it as a sport or exercise.

This thread really helped me out, put my mixed up thoughts into perspective. I now have a goal

Gone are the days of just turning up at training twice or three times a week, I now understand that the ball has been passed to me and it's up to me now!

Besides the linework and bogus bunkai, I now go home and rethink bunkai. I don't see selfdefense as a more realistic sparring session. I now see Gichin Funakoshi crushing someone testicles in a slightly different light. I now see Shotokan as a complete martial art.

Long talk. I thank everyone for helping me out!

[SenseiMike]

Read some of funakoshi's books, he very clearly states that there is more to Karate than meets the eyes. He is quite upfront about the grappling aspects of the art, the joint locks, the pressure points etc...

If you feel that you are stuck in children's karate then it is 100% your fault. Look into your kata and find their secrets. That is the job of the true karateka, to find the secrets for your self.

[Why_Worry]

Yeah think about it. you have releases right? Wlel trying using liek a wrist release to block a punch and drag them to the ground or the most fun and a good way to humilate someone or just amaze yoru friend sis tell them to punch at you and you step the the side and grab the presure point on their hand and take their whoel body down with two fingers. Its fun. With all the pressure points you can pretty much make a grappling hold or make it into a sweep/throw or anything. I mean when you practice releases with pranters you learn so many different ways to grab poeple even if there is a way of getting out all you have to do is modified each hold a little bit and its hard to get out.

[jion]

If you feel that you are stuck in children's karate then it is 100% your fault

That is absolutely true. Often on these forums you get asked about Shotokan's effectiveness or this style vs that style, etc etc. It's not up to the style to make you effective, it's your responsibility.

There is no helf except self-help.

That is why after all these years I thought something was fishy. After bumming around for a few years I turned and asked myself, "how can I get more mileage out of Shotokan, I can't be the only one".

It's great that people are still coming up with ideas. I bet I'm not the only one asking themselves these questions.

[y2_sub]

If you feel that you are stuck in children's karate then it is 100% your fault

That is absolutely true. Often on these forums you get asked about Shotokan's effectiveness or this style vs that style, etc etc. It's not up to the style to make you effective, it's your responsibility.

Amen

[Traditional-Fist]

I believe that Shotokan Karate as practiced by the Japanese, and at least up to the early 1960's was more of a fighting art than it is for the most part today. I believe that the JKA training involved a lot of vital area attacks; defense against boxing and grappling type attacks as well as more variety in hand techniques. There are probably schools that practice Shotokan that way today as well, not many, but there must be some around somewhere.

I would suggest that you research other schools of Shotokan as well as reading some older books on the subject.

My personal direct experience with Shotokan is somewhat limited compared to yours and to many people in this forum. I did however practice it in a good school for about a year or so. I do know that it was a good school and that the black belts, as disciplined, polite and honorable as they were, were not to be messed with.

Anyway, good luck and I know that you can find what you are looking for within Shotokan.

[Traditional-Fist]

Jion,

Oh, I almost forgot. Apparently the Japanese Self Defence Police Force use Shotokan Karate for their unarmed combat training. Their sparring is full contact and punches to the face are allowed. They do however use rather small fighting gloves.

I have got the above information from a documentary DVD. According to this program, the police force hold karate (Shotokan) tournaments and these are the most brutal karate competitions in Japan.

It will be worthwhile for you to explore THEIR Shotokan further if at all possible. I don't know if there is any info on the internet, because I have not looked for it myself yet.

Good luck.

[lgm]

My question to you guys is, without breaking the tradition of shotokan or cross training, how can we get more mileage out of Shotokan, bring it to a new level?

I have read the whole clip here and so many people have helpful views to share. I have practiced JKA Shotokan for 38 years. In my limited experience, I know Shotokan have forked into two major roads: sports and traditional SD. Most schools have travelled the sports route and many who went this way have realized that in the end their Shotokan karate has been defanged, enmasculated and become mere entertainment.

In both sports and SD Shotokan karate, the kihon practice remained more or less fundamentally similar in training. However, in kata, sports Shotokan has emphasized mainly or exclusively solo kata, where these formal exercises are done by oneself or in unison with others, but demonstrates fighting only imagined and not real opponents. On the other hand, SD Shotokan karate, which is a minority group in the Shotokan world, has insisted on bunkai and oyo training, practising these formal kata with actual opponents, advancing training from cooperative to uncooperative or free-styled training partners.

Finally in kumite, sports Shotokan engages in non-contact tournament sparring or what is derisively known as "tagging" competition. On the other hand, SD Shotokan karate, also a very small minority, practices full-contact sparring rather games of tag.

So, Jion, if you want to actualize or upgrade your Shotokan training to a much higher level, without abandoning or corrupting your Shotokan style, (which I presume you love above all else like yours truly) by grafting or creating a hybrid style with other karate or martial arts styles, then you should go the SD Shotokan route, rather than the sports route. Your choice, buddy.

Shotokan karate offers both possibilities of skill development. You need not be limited by your own formal training, if it taught you only the sports type. You can plan and manage your training henceforth to achieve what you want to achieve with your karate. Find the right Shotokan karate school that teaches SD rather than sports. If you don't find one and you are already a Shotokan blackbelt, create your own training group with your BBs friends. If you are not a Shotokan shodan, you may want to finish it first and then go on your own training for further self-development. The practice of and training in karate ends only when life ends, IMO.

In the end, it is not the dojo, karate school, karate style, nor the instructor or organization that will make you the karateka you want to be, it's how you make your karate work for you.